I need a set of bypass shocks.
I really like teh idea of an internal bypass, so i can run springs on the outside, and only have one shock, like the revolutions, but from reading here no one seems to be able to say, "I'm running them and they are great, no problems, blah, blah, blah."
I'm trying to get away from buying expensive stuff that doesn't work or takes a lot of work all the time to keep it working...
Why doesn't anyone run bilstein bypass'? Cost? reliability? performance? they don't have a cool sticker on the shock body?
Is there a big difference between fox and king except price?
I already have bilstein 2" coil overs that will need to be revalved, and I'll need to get new springs
Will the difference between a 2.0" bypass and a 2.5" bypass make a huge difference?
thanks
Full Version: Yet Another Shock Question...
Prepare for yet another boring old guy story. But, there's some good info in it somewhere.
Years ago, there was a Class 5 unltd. guy named Bob Giese. He was a innovator and fab guy to the stars. He came up with an internal bypass, Nitrogen sprung shock that had all the features all in one package. They were only available in 18" travel and had a 1" shaft and billet Aluminum body. Cool things for sure and very pricey. Some guys here in AZ bought them cuz they were "THE " hot ticket at the time. Six internal bypasses, externally adjustable. Well over $5000 each (in 1980 $$). And designed to be the only means of suspension control per corner.
The problem was that the gas got hot and rose in pressure and gradually oversprung the cars. Then the bypass only design made for a single speed shock. They worked at a fairly narrow range of velocity and amplitude for you techy guys.
The longest time on any car was about 3 months and many dollars were spent to try to dial them in.
They went away never to be seen again. Then Sway-a-way came out with their version of 'Internal Bypass " shock. It also had 6 externally adjustable bypasses, but no gas spring feature. We personally tried these for over a year and never got them truly to work well. They were also a single speed shock. Loose at low speeds and harsh at high speeds. When adjusted for high speeds, they were overly loose on small stuff. When adjusted for low speed, they were brutal at high speeds, passing the hits to the chassis.
Moral of the story: Get coils, adjustable air bags, or torsion bars. Get the external bypass technology for now. If you really need it. Make sure there's a provision for deflected disc damping in them.
And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
Carl
Years ago, there was a Class 5 unltd. guy named Bob Giese. He was a innovator and fab guy to the stars. He came up with an internal bypass, Nitrogen sprung shock that had all the features all in one package. They were only available in 18" travel and had a 1" shaft and billet Aluminum body. Cool things for sure and very pricey. Some guys here in AZ bought them cuz they were "THE " hot ticket at the time. Six internal bypasses, externally adjustable. Well over $5000 each (in 1980 $$). And designed to be the only means of suspension control per corner.
The problem was that the gas got hot and rose in pressure and gradually oversprung the cars. Then the bypass only design made for a single speed shock. They worked at a fairly narrow range of velocity and amplitude for you techy guys.
The longest time on any car was about 3 months and many dollars were spent to try to dial them in.
They went away never to be seen again. Then Sway-a-way came out with their version of 'Internal Bypass " shock. It also had 6 externally adjustable bypasses, but no gas spring feature. We personally tried these for over a year and never got them truly to work well. They were also a single speed shock. Loose at low speeds and harsh at high speeds. When adjusted for high speeds, they were overly loose on small stuff. When adjusted for low speed, they were brutal at high speeds, passing the hits to the chassis.
Moral of the story: Get coils, adjustable air bags, or torsion bars. Get the external bypass technology for now. If you really need it. Make sure there's a provision for deflected disc damping in them.
And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
Carl
thank you for the history...
I have coils (2.0 Bilstein). i can't remember the spring weights. I know I have to revalve those and will have to go up on at least my top spring.
I'm adding a new motor (more weight) and I want to be able to adjust for conditions and passengers
No one ever talks about bilstein bypass shocks...why?
No one ever talks about the difference between King and Fox though there seems to be a definite $$$ difference.
I understand that I will probably be happy with what ever I get, but the difference in price is fairly significant...
I have coils (2.0 Bilstein). i can't remember the spring weights. I know I have to revalve those and will have to go up on at least my top spring.
I'm adding a new motor (more weight) and I want to be able to adjust for conditions and passengers
No one ever talks about bilstein bypass shocks...why?
No one ever talks about the difference between King and Fox though there seems to be a definite $$$ difference.
I understand that I will probably be happy with what ever I get, but the difference in price is fairly significant...
QUOTE(Carl P @ Dec 19 2005, 09:33 AM)
Prepare for yet another boring old guy story. But, there's some good info in it somewhere.
Years ago, there was a Class 5 unltd. guy named Bob Giese. He was a innovator and fab guy to the stars. He came up with an internal bypass, Nitrogen sprung shock that had all the features all in one package. They were only available in 18" travel and had a 1" shaft and billet Aluminum body. Cool things for sure and very pricey. Some guys here in AZ bought them cuz they were "THE " hot ticket at the time. Six internal bypasses, externally adjustable. Well over $5000 each (in 1980 $$). And designed to be the only means of suspension control per corner.
The problem was that the gas got hot and rose in pressure and gradually oversprung the cars. Then the bypass only design made for a single speed shock. They worked at a fairly narrow range of velocity and amplitude for you techy guys.
The longest time on any car was about 3 months and many dollars were spent to try to dial them in.
They went away never to be seen again. Then Sway-a-way came out with their version of 'Internal Bypass " shock. It also had 6 externally adjustable bypasses, but no gas spring feature. We personally tried these for over a year and never got them truly to work well. They were also a single speed shock. Loose at low speeds and harsh at high speeds. When adjusted for high speeds, they were overly loose on small stuff. When adjusted for low speed, they were brutal at high speeds, passing the hits to the chassis.
Moral of the story: Get coils, adjustable air bags, or torsion bars. Get the external bypass technology for now. If you really need it. Make sure there's a provision for deflected disc damping in them.
And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
Carl
[right][snapback]1329779[/snapback][/right]
Years ago, there was a Class 5 unltd. guy named Bob Giese. He was a innovator and fab guy to the stars. He came up with an internal bypass, Nitrogen sprung shock that had all the features all in one package. They were only available in 18" travel and had a 1" shaft and billet Aluminum body. Cool things for sure and very pricey. Some guys here in AZ bought them cuz they were "THE " hot ticket at the time. Six internal bypasses, externally adjustable. Well over $5000 each (in 1980 $$). And designed to be the only means of suspension control per corner.
The problem was that the gas got hot and rose in pressure and gradually oversprung the cars. Then the bypass only design made for a single speed shock. They worked at a fairly narrow range of velocity and amplitude for you techy guys.
The longest time on any car was about 3 months and many dollars were spent to try to dial them in.
They went away never to be seen again. Then Sway-a-way came out with their version of 'Internal Bypass " shock. It also had 6 externally adjustable bypasses, but no gas spring feature. We personally tried these for over a year and never got them truly to work well. They were also a single speed shock. Loose at low speeds and harsh at high speeds. When adjusted for high speeds, they were overly loose on small stuff. When adjusted for low speed, they were brutal at high speeds, passing the hits to the chassis.
Moral of the story: Get coils, adjustable air bags, or torsion bars. Get the external bypass technology for now. If you really need it. Make sure there's a provision for deflected disc damping in them.
And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
Carl
[right][snapback]1329779[/snapback][/right]
Whats the single speed stuff about? Whats different internally on the internal bypass vice the others?
Great story Carl, I always love to learn about what's been done, no sense trying to reinvent the wheel.
As for the original questions, you kinda left out a lot of background. Wheel travel, weight of rail, current spring #s on the car, what kind of driving you do, where do you usually drive it, how much did the old engine weigh, how much does the new engine weigh. Are you thinking bypass front and rear, or only rear?
I'll give some general info - my opinion.
External bypasses work great, Bilstein aren't that popular due to prices (I think) and somewhere I heard that King and Fox (more so King) will answer Joe Duner's questions and ship out custom ordered shocks that day or the next. Bilstein is geared toward large corp. accounts and if you're not buying 100,000 units, you ain't chit. This may or may not be true, but I do recall an Elite car which was running Bilsteins and the builder was getting jerked around for months on one pair of shocks.
As for revalving your current shock, great idea. I'd also add bypasses to the rear if there's any possible way to mount them.
As for replacing your springs, I'd leave the top spring alone and go up 100, 200 or 250 lbs on the bottom spring, depending on how much more the engine weighs. I'm running 500/600 on the rear of mine, but I bet 400/700 would ride smoother and bottom even less often.
So if you're current setup is 400/400 (as an example), consider changing the bottom to 500, 550, or 600. Then play around with the collar height to fine tune when the collector stops the top spring t oget a good ride and minimize bottoming. These are general numbers, you might get more specific advice if you give us more info.
As for the original questions, you kinda left out a lot of background. Wheel travel, weight of rail, current spring #s on the car, what kind of driving you do, where do you usually drive it, how much did the old engine weigh, how much does the new engine weigh. Are you thinking bypass front and rear, or only rear?
I'll give some general info - my opinion.
External bypasses work great, Bilstein aren't that popular due to prices (I think) and somewhere I heard that King and Fox (more so King) will answer Joe Duner's questions and ship out custom ordered shocks that day or the next. Bilstein is geared toward large corp. accounts and if you're not buying 100,000 units, you ain't chit. This may or may not be true, but I do recall an Elite car which was running Bilsteins and the builder was getting jerked around for months on one pair of shocks.
As for revalving your current shock, great idea. I'd also add bypasses to the rear if there's any possible way to mount them.
As for replacing your springs, I'd leave the top spring alone and go up 100, 200 or 250 lbs on the bottom spring, depending on how much more the engine weighs. I'm running 500/600 on the rear of mine, but I bet 400/700 would ride smoother and bottom even less often.
So if you're current setup is 400/400 (as an example), consider changing the bottom to 500, 550, or 600. Then play around with the collar height to fine tune when the collector stops the top spring t oget a good ride and minimize bottoming. These are general numbers, you might get more specific advice if you give us more info.
weaz, external bypasses give you the ability to progressively control the damping in diferent areas of the stroke, a single speed shock just damps and can't change for the terrain or act like a progressive shock.
The externally adjustable units (Revolution) had 4 stages right?
I believe the internal bypasses only allow for free bleed. That means the fluid flowing through the bypass ports is uncontrolled. So you get digital increases in damping as ports are closed off.
The external bypass shocks have adjustable orifice size in the bypass tube. Therefore, you can have multiple damping rates depending upon where you are in the shock.
Carl, is that what you are referring to with single speed?
The external bypass shocks have adjustable orifice size in the bypass tube. Therefore, you can have multiple damping rates depending upon where you are in the shock.
Carl, is that what you are referring to with single speed?
The Revolution shocks have 4 stages, all completely adjustable at the shock cap. The mechanics behind these are very similar to typical external bypass shocks.
not sure of weight, but I'm guessing 1400-1600 dry with sand tires, but that was with a VW...new motor is going to be a 3.5L NA Honda.....so it's getting a lot heavier...and the dirt tires are considerably heavier
I don't remember the weights on my springs...though I know the numbers are stamped on the bottoms
It get's run fast in the dunes and hard stuff. It's been to Baja...but it see's a lot of family putt putt rides. I've got five seats, so it also sees a lot of "Oh my god my friends weigh a lot " rides
As it is, it is set up a little too heavy for running with just one person. With three, the suspension performs flawlessly--whoops, rollers, sharp drops, unexpected obstacles like rocks although at sharp transitions the person in the back gets a healthy little slap on the arse. I've adjusted teh collar, I've played with the springs, and I can change it for different conditions and for differwent loads, but it takes a long time to tighten/loosen springs, and adjust that collar for the second spring....and it really has never been just perfect.
i understand that the handling is going to change still under different conditions with different loads, but I want to be able to make some adjustments in a few minutes...
I have no plans for bypass on the front yet, as the new motor, new shocks, radiator, re-wiring, new gas tank is going to suck up a lot of my pocket change...
thanks for the info so far, six years ago when I put this together, it took 12 hours, 14 phone calls, and eventually a trip to mckenzie's to get this kind of feed back...
and since everyone else advertises, when i go, i'm almost always at 23
I don't remember the weights on my springs...though I know the numbers are stamped on the bottoms
It get's run fast in the dunes and hard stuff. It's been to Baja...but it see's a lot of family putt putt rides. I've got five seats, so it also sees a lot of "Oh my god my friends weigh a lot " rides
As it is, it is set up a little too heavy for running with just one person. With three, the suspension performs flawlessly--whoops, rollers, sharp drops, unexpected obstacles like rocks although at sharp transitions the person in the back gets a healthy little slap on the arse. I've adjusted teh collar, I've played with the springs, and I can change it for different conditions and for differwent loads, but it takes a long time to tighten/loosen springs, and adjust that collar for the second spring....and it really has never been just perfect.
i understand that the handling is going to change still under different conditions with different loads, but I want to be able to make some adjustments in a few minutes...
I have no plans for bypass on the front yet, as the new motor, new shocks, radiator, re-wiring, new gas tank is going to suck up a lot of my pocket change...
thanks for the info so far, six years ago when I put this together, it took 12 hours, 14 phone calls, and eventually a trip to mckenzie's to get this kind of feed back...
and since everyone else advertises, when i go, i'm almost always at 23
QUOTE(GoatPoker @ Dec 19 2005, 08:24 PM)
I believe the internal bypasses only allow for free bleed. That means the fluid flowing through the bypass ports is uncontrolled. So you get digital increases in damping as ports are closed off.
The external bypass shocks have adjustable orifice size in the bypass tube. Therefore, you can have multiple damping rates depending upon where you are in the shock.
Carl, is that what you are referring to with single speed?
[right][snapback]1331207[/snapback][/right]
The external bypass shocks have adjustable orifice size in the bypass tube. Therefore, you can have multiple damping rates depending upon where you are in the shock.
Carl, is that what you are referring to with single speed?
[right][snapback]1331207[/snapback][/right]
Well, sort of. Regardles of what orifice you choose, there is one velocity and amplitude that they "hit their peak." Below that, they are flowing with no resistance other than the spring on the pintle. And this makes it a loose feeling car.
After they pop the pintle off the seat, with hard hits, the fluid would max in flow through the given orifice, and build pressure beyond that velocity resulting in a harsh hit from fluid cavitation through the bypass/orifice.
The disc valving would enable the overly harsh hits to bypass the piston in the case it goes beyond the flow capacity of the bypass equipment (pintle, seat, orifice, spring, etc.).
But you could always calibrate the spring/popoff points in the bypasses and then get it to a more of a curve than a digital stepped function.
So, in my humble backyard opinion, you NEED some valving that is calibrated to pass the unabsorbable hits outside the regulating capacity of the bypasses.
This is the basic underlying theory and application of today's "DIGRESSIVE" disc valving.
CArl
Somebody needs to try a Silicone fluid that thins when high compression is applied, and thickens when no pressure is applied.
Kinda like the Silicone fluid in AWD center diffs and fan clutches that thickens when heated and thins when cold..
Only different...
Carl
Kinda like the Silicone fluid in AWD center diffs and fan clutches that thickens when heated and thins when cold..
Only different...
Carl
QUOTE(Carl P @ Dec 20 2005, 11:30 AM)
Somebody needs to try a Silicone fluid that thins when high compression is applied, and thickens when no pressure is applied.
Kinda like the Silicone fluid in AWD center diffs and fan clutches that thickens when heated and thins when cold..
Only different...
Carl
[right][snapback]1332093[/snapback][/right]
Kinda like the Silicone fluid in AWD center diffs and fan clutches that thickens when heated and thins when cold..
Only different...
Carl
[right][snapback]1332093[/snapback][/right]
Somebody needs to translate this s*** into weazl! I need pictures, you know, Barney style
Thixotropic Fluids
Non-newtonian fluids.
QUOTE(GoatPoker @ Dec 20 2005, 12:34 PM)
Non-newtonian fluids.
[right][snapback]1332367[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]1332367[/snapback][/right]
Like beer! Goes in thin and makes your head thick!!
Also makes ugly into pretty!
Carl
I think we hijacked but here's the easiest solution.
More travel! You don't have to be fancy with your valving if you just get more travel.
More travel! You don't have to be fancy with your valving if you just get more travel.
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