What committees are in existance to help regain some of the closed areas???

~A

That was quik. :mrgreen:

Andy, check these orgs out...

www.americansandassociation.org
www.corva.org
www.sdorc.org

Thanks Doug, I guess I have some reading to do.

~A

NOW you know why we hate the "Greenies"...CBD...Daniel Patterson...etc... >:< >:< and why we are so passionate about re-opening the "closures"....COMING SOON...STAKE PULLIN' Party!!!!!!!!!

Queenie, no joke. I still need to read all the sites that I was given but on their face they do seem to be based on little merit.

~A

some more :


Duners :

http://www.duners.org

Crowley Offroad :

http://www.crowley-offroad.com/

Sand Addiction Magazin :

http://www.sandaddiction.com/landrevaction.htm

Thanks V8.

Are there any sympathetic Politicians to this issue of re-opening closed areas for OHV use???

~A

Hey Wettie--- You need to do lots of reading on ASA site... Once you go to Mother G you too will be >:< about all the closures and BS handed down from Center for Big D***heads ...you will understand :mrgreen:

QG

http://www.clorv.org/index.htm

and more links :

http://www.crowley-offroad.com/Links.htm

Duncan Hunter is the biggest pro-OHV politician. He's in a district near San Diego. The ASA has been in constant contact with many politicians for a long time now, and even took some of them on a dune tour/ride recently, which the politicians said the had a great time at and could not believe the amount of money we all have invested in this sport. If you look in the news section of the ASA site you can read about much of this info.

Taken from the ASA news section:

ASA Gives Sacramento VIPs tour of the Dunes
On Sunday, March 9, ASA Board Member Grant George welcomed Terry McHale, his boss Aaron Reid, 2 special asst. to the speaker of the house Herb Wesson, Alfonso Sanchez (asst to assemblyman Marco Firebaugh), 1 from Hortons office and 2 from the Hispanic caucus to the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area. Along with ASA lobbyist Terence McHale of Aaron Read & Associates Grant gave a guided and interpretive tour of the Dunes to these Sacramento legislators and staff members. Most had only heard of the Dunes but now have first hand experience with the area and as Grant George says "they now have a new perspective on what the dunes are and who the people are that go there and our views on the issues."

Wet, sounds like you got lots of home work to do! Guess you won't be posting as much for a while! YES! A little time to play catch up! :burn: But everyone must learn sometime or another, have fun! :cheese:


LIVE FREE OR DIE!

does sound promising

~A

Duncan Hunter Rules!

At least we agree on that! :roll2:


LIVE FREE OR DIE!

That is a nasty looking map... it's the same one that's on the DUNERS website, courtesy of a mutual friend 8)

Lots of talking and rumors and press releases and media attention about the RAMP coming out and what that will do to the closures.

As much as I hate to say it, this isn't over. The anti-access groups are already poised and ready to go back into court to challenge the Fish & Wildlife opinion. Will they win? Of course not. But they will keep the issue tied up in court that much longer, keeping the closure markers in place. That's the fact of the matter I'm afraid.

There is a lot that can be done and a lot that is being done. All the organizations mentioned here already are working on these anti-access issues. Pick one and join so you can have a voice. You can make a difference.

Vicki

Is belonging to one group a disqualifier to join any other pro access groups?

No, not at all. I'm a member of CORVA and BRC and DUNERS. 3 of our 5 board members are members of ASA, SDORC, CORVA and DUNERS. No one group can possibly be expected to win Glamis back; there are just too many issues. I'd say join them all so you know all your bases are covered :shock: but joining one at least will help you help Glamis.

Vicki

I read in a magazine that the presence of some type of beetle (sorry for nto hard facts) has created a storm of petitioners to close off more of Glamis / Imperial Dunes. I will post the magazine and month issue when I get home this evening.

~A

Wet, the beetle you're referring to is the Andrew's Dune Scarab Beetle and yes, last December several anti-access groups petitioned the Fish and Wildlife Service to have the little devil put on the Endangered Species List.

This critter does indeed inhabit the dunes but anyone who has taken a dusk ride can tell you they are very prolific.

At this point in time the FWS is not responding to any petitions, either to list or delist a species, because of lack of money. Right now (this comes straight from the FWS by the way) they are waiting until they are sued before taking any kind of action. And, right now they are not even responding to lawsuits because of lack of money.

The anti-access groups have basically shot themselves and everyone else in the foot. Organizations such as the Fish & Wildlife Service are so busy chasing down frivolous lawsuits that they don't have time for any type of conservation work. Of course, that doesn't matter to these groups because their primary goal truly is not saving a species, but lining their pockets and gaining power.

That said, since the petition was filed last December, the FWS will have until this December to decide if the petition is worthy or not. If they don't respond to the petition by then, the anti-access groups will have to sue to have the petition reviewed. Watch for that in December 2003.

Vicki

Vicki, thanks for the clarification, yes the article I read was infact discussing this particluar beetle.

Let me ask you this, how does these vexacious lawsuits benefit the TreeHugger orgs??? How do they gain money from such law suits? I think I am missing a point here.

I figured that all they would go for is a court mandate or injunction orderign the court to close off more dunes, I do not see pecuniary relief as a viable goal. Please help me out here.

One way,
They are a group of lawyers and they charge very high fees.
When they settle a lawsuit, all their fees are paid by the agency that they filed the suit against, usually the BLM or USF&G.

Another way,
Much of their contributions come from little old ladies who feel they need to do something (redeeming) with their money before they kick off.
So they donate or create charitable trusts for these green groups.
Now, if the green group can boast about saving all this land from those terrible OHV recreationist, (dirty bikers to them) then they have more chance of soliciting the dough from the old folks.

Robbie is exactly right with both examples.

The lawsuits themselves are not great money makers, except for the fact that it keeps these uneducated and intolerable jerks on our payroll instead of going out and getting a real job.

The real money comes in when they "sell" their "wins" to the donating masses, in particular the large corporations. They point to a stack of lawsuits, claim that they "win" 80% of the lawsuits they file and since everyone wants to back a winner, these trusts, little old ladies and major corporations open their wallets.

They are not asked and would not be able to prove any species have been saved by their lawsuits. They lie, spew propaganda and dance around the truth, ending their pleas for cash with "we won that one, but without your contribution we can't do any more." It's a long running gravy train.

By the way, here's how they "win" those lawsuits.

1. They approach a land management agency (BLM, FWS, Parks and Rec) and they say "we're going to shut down your very popular play area because of [some unmonitored species].

2. The land management agency begs and pleads, and then consults with a lawyer. The lawyer says they have a chance they could win, but a court battle would cost them $800,000; see if they'll settle, which would only cost about $200,000.

3. The bad guys say "okay, we'll only take some of it but we need it to be through the court system so we get paid our attorney fees."

4. The papers are drawn up (probably already were before any talks began), the parties go to court, a stipulation is signed and the bad guys score one in the win column. And they don't lose one dime because when you sue using the Endangered Species Act and you win (a signed stip qualifies), you are entitled to all attorney's fees and costs.

The agencies are so busy paying for these lawsuits that they can't afford to do the things they should be doing. Eventually they are sued for not doing the things they couldn't afford to do because they were being sued.

All the while our natural resources are suffering. These a$$holes don't pick a species because it is in danger. They pick a species because they know it has been ignored. All the while, species that are in genuine trouble but could be helped are suffering.

These guys manipulate the endangered species act to gain power and money and more power and money and they HAVEN'T SAVED ONE SPECIES. (go ahead Dano, show me proof. I DARE YOU.)

California is a huge target in the Anti-access group takeover of our public lands. According to the BLM, "The endangered species list [in California] increased from 95 in 1990 to 294 by the year 2002." We currently have 294 federally listed in California, plus another 373 state-listed species and fully half of the federally listed species' habitat is on public lands. WHAT a coincidence!

Vicki

I don't have all the references available but do a search and look at what they are doing to the other half; i.e. private property.

My only issue today is that I can't ride dunes this week. Peace