I attended an OHV leadership meeting today at the BLM's Desert District office. Many things were discussed, some about the upcoming grants and there was some discussion how user groups can help make a difference at Glamis, and lots of the usual posturing.
The most heated part of the meeting took place when it came time to discuss the inevitable fee increase at Glamis. We're not the only ones being hit by the way... several other areas who have never charged a fee will most likely be charging a fee starting next season. This is no surprise, but it is still unpleasant news.
The reason for increasing fees is two-fold. First, Glamis has been operating at a deficit for many years. When I say deficit, I mean something like over budget by $2 mil. Why? Several reasons. For instance, across the board money for recreation has been cut in many areas. This in spite of huge increases in the number of people recreating.
And second, the OHMVR commission is holding our money hostage and will not pay for the things that many people want at Glamis, things that many people demand at Glamis.
Before we start pounding our fists about we already pay too much and where did our money go, it went where we wanted it to go. At least, it went where the few people who spoke up said they wanted it to go. If it was not spent where we wanted, we probably should have been the ones to speak up.
A point needs to be made about the OHMVR withholding our money. They seem to be fairly willing to give what we ask for in law enforcement funds, and of course they are more than willing to give the money that we ask for when it comes to conservation needs. But when we ask for Operation and Maintenance (O&M) dollars, they cinch right up. Oh, there are ways we can get to it, yeah baby. We can make a deal. We'd get some money if we'd allow the BLM to sign off on things like keeping the 25,000 acre camping closure closed permanently just because the anti-access groups like it that way, or by agreeing to allow the field manager to close down one area or another if he/she feels that area is being overused (close your eyes and think of what that could mean). Is that what we want to do? Are we willing to endorse an alcohol ban if it means getting that money? How about dune-wide curfews? Capacity limits? Permanent closure of the staked areas?
Now, when we're all done pointing fingers at the BLM for mis-spending our money and pointing our fingers at ourselves for never attending the Technical Review Team meetings (that's the panel that was formed to make recommendations on what to do with the money by the way), and pointing our fingers at the anti-access members of the OHMVR Commission who are trying to extort our money, let's get down to brass tacks.
Right now we have our one and only chance to get in on what will happen. A business plan is being written for Glamis right this very minute that will help dictate how the money is brought in and how it is spent. The BLM is working very hard to yield to us on this. They'll attend any meeting we want, whether it's in a garage, a warehouse or a park. They don't want to be responsible for deciding how much and in what way. They want our help.
This news is no surprise and it's no damn fun. But it's time to really make that difference we've all been bitching about.
Full Version: Inevitable fee increase
Thanks for the update Vicki. I'm curious about your statement that the BLM is open to "How the money is brought in." I understand the OHMVR screwed us out of 1.2 million in operation and maintenance costs. Is this correct? So... aside from increased fees at Glamis, how else could money be "brought in?" Any ideas? Can we lobby the OHMVR for money even after they turned down the grant? What other options do we have?
Yep, that 1.2 million is about right.
Non-profit groups can solicit funds from the OHMVR to help supplement the needs of Glamis, sure. The BLM is open to help from those areas.
And the BLM will solicit money for law enforcement from the OHMVR and they'll also submit a grant for conservation and monitoring (c'mon, like they'll turn that down???).
But since this fee increase is not related to the OHMVR in any way (they can't touch it or tell us how to spend it), the monies I was referring to would not be coming from the OHMVR fund.
Basically, the consultant will start with a budget and then build a business plan around it, and they want input on how to go about earning that money.
For instance, if the preferred alternative goes through we know we'll have a pilot reservation system for Roadrunner. Do we want to earn Glamis money by having other areas put on a reservation system? Or do we want the reservation system to be done in a bidding process, which would garner more money?
Maybe we should pay more for camping at the Gecko pads versus Mammoth Wash or, since the major weekends are what really sucks down the money, maybe we should just pay more for visiting on those days.
Should we do away with the yearly pass and only pay on a per visit basis? Maybe a system where you pay for each visit up to a certain cap and then no more... like getting a free cup of coffee after buying the first 10.
And while we're at it, what do we expect to get for our money? This is a very "accountability-focused" plan. We have the right to make demands and now is the time to set the trend of mutual satisfaction.
I sure wish I could stress that one fact harder... we can contribute here and now more than ever we really should.
Vicki
Non-profit groups can solicit funds from the OHMVR to help supplement the needs of Glamis, sure. The BLM is open to help from those areas.
And the BLM will solicit money for law enforcement from the OHMVR and they'll also submit a grant for conservation and monitoring (c'mon, like they'll turn that down???).
But since this fee increase is not related to the OHMVR in any way (they can't touch it or tell us how to spend it), the monies I was referring to would not be coming from the OHMVR fund.
Basically, the consultant will start with a budget and then build a business plan around it, and they want input on how to go about earning that money.
For instance, if the preferred alternative goes through we know we'll have a pilot reservation system for Roadrunner. Do we want to earn Glamis money by having other areas put on a reservation system? Or do we want the reservation system to be done in a bidding process, which would garner more money?
Maybe we should pay more for camping at the Gecko pads versus Mammoth Wash or, since the major weekends are what really sucks down the money, maybe we should just pay more for visiting on those days.
Should we do away with the yearly pass and only pay on a per visit basis? Maybe a system where you pay for each visit up to a certain cap and then no more... like getting a free cup of coffee after buying the first 10.
And while we're at it, what do we expect to get for our money? This is a very "accountability-focused" plan. We have the right to make demands and now is the time to set the trend of mutual satisfaction.
I sure wish I could stress that one fact harder... we can contribute here and now more than ever we really should.
Vicki
I'll pay "whatever" if it means opening up the closures...
Careful what you wish for... the bad guys are great at making behind closed doors deals.
What would you give up for total opening? Alcohol at the dunes? Prohibition of certain types of toys? No more street legal vehicles allowed on the sand? Lights out and everyone in their camp by 10:00 every night? Extreme capacity limits?
The anti-access proponents dangle those closures over our heads all the time. And so has the grant money.
But that's another story for another day. This is about a fee demo increase... how do you want to see it enacted?
Vicki
What would you give up for total opening? Alcohol at the dunes? Prohibition of certain types of toys? No more street legal vehicles allowed on the sand? Lights out and everyone in their camp by 10:00 every night? Extreme capacity limits?
The anti-access proponents dangle those closures over our heads all the time. And so has the grant money.
But that's another story for another day. This is about a fee demo increase... how do you want to see it enacted?
Vicki
Just for the record---I support free access to OHV OPEN areas. How can you expect riders to respect the LIMITED USE areas and go to the OPEN areas if they're crowded, unsafe and cost money?
The whole problem with the ISDRA is with the BLM's mismanagement of the rare wildlife, not with innocent OHV recreationists who are trying to follow the rules.
The whole problem with the ISDRA is with the BLM's mismanagement of the rare wildlife, not with innocent OHV recreationists who are trying to follow the rules.
So after the WEMO meeting (what a POS...) finally time to go back to the OHV Leadership meeting :
KG,
they asked for 1.2 million, but remember BLM put in a total of over 25million in grant request and the commission had 16.7 million to give out for whole CA so you can do the math
Then the Friends orgs and DUNERS know for a long time that this will happen and we are prepared ....
timetable looks like this :
business plan will be finished end of may ....
first week of june we involved orgs will have a meeting with the BLM guys ...
mid june DUNERS and Friends of Dumont (we get most likely also a fee ..)
will have some meetings, biggest one will be saturday june 21 at Prowlers. exact time TBA ....
There will be meetings in the High Desert, LV and down in the valley.
we can not do much against it, but we should try to make the best out of it
KG,
they asked for 1.2 million, but remember BLM put in a total of over 25million in grant request and the commission had 16.7 million to give out for whole CA so you can do the math
Then the Friends orgs and DUNERS know for a long time that this will happen and we are prepared ....
timetable looks like this :
business plan will be finished end of may ....
first week of june we involved orgs will have a meeting with the BLM guys ...
mid june DUNERS and Friends of Dumont (we get most likely also a fee ..)
will have some meetings, biggest one will be saturday june 21 at Prowlers. exact time TBA ....
There will be meetings in the High Desert, LV and down in the valley.
we can not do much against it, but we should try to make the best out of it
We need to stage some type of peaceful revolt against the OHMVR. Just because they can steal our money under the threat of government sanctioned violence against us, and then hold us hostage to get it back doesn't make it right.
That's on the horizon too JET. But this first.
These fees are increasing and the business plan is being written.
The people who use Glamis need to be part of this. Do you want the BLM making those decisions for you???
Vicki
These fees are increasing and the business plan is being written.
The people who use Glamis need to be part of this. Do you want the BLM making those decisions for you???
Vicki
It seems like the BLM will do whatever it wants to do regardless of our input. But then again, our input hasn't been real forthcoming except for a few sources that may not reflect the wishes of a great many duners.
This situation sucks. Especially since when I point my finger at someone, I have the other three pointing back at myself.
This situation sucks. Especially since when I point my finger at someone, I have the other three pointing back at myself.
I understand what you're saying and a lot of people feel that way.
What I can say is over the last 30 years how to deal with these issues have changed. Old school thinking was let the OHV leaders make the decisions amongst themselves and all will be well, no need to bother the users for with all this decision making. I don't think that's getting us very far.
Management within our local BLM office has changed a lot over the last three years and what I'm hearing from local and regional level is that our input is very much needed. It works well for everyone concerned. They cover their a$$ because they're doing what we ask and we get what we want because we've actually conveyed our wishes directly instead of just griping from the sidelines.
Things have changed and it's time to take advantage of that.
Vicki
What I can say is over the last 30 years how to deal with these issues have changed. Old school thinking was let the OHV leaders make the decisions amongst themselves and all will be well, no need to bother the users for with all this decision making. I don't think that's getting us very far.
Management within our local BLM office has changed a lot over the last three years and what I'm hearing from local and regional level is that our input is very much needed. It works well for everyone concerned. They cover their a$$ because they're doing what we ask and we get what we want because we've actually conveyed our wishes directly instead of just griping from the sidelines.
Things have changed and it's time to take advantage of that.
Vicki
[quote]But all this other stuff was brought onto ourselves.................Alcohol ban, capacity limits, reservations, no night riding[/quote]
I don't agree. No one asked for these things. Glamis became a thorn in the sides of politicians and the politicians started putting the heat on BLM and Dept of Interior. We have been dragged into the public spotlight by the anti-access groups and the people who have the power to keep us open are (were) being forced to do something about it. They hear "limit visitor use" and "ban alcohol" and "put a dune-wide curfew in place" whispered to them by the anti-access groups and since they don't hear any solutions from anyone else, they start thinking that sounds easy enough.
We have to start making noise. We have to start letting them know what we want. We are the bastards of the OHV community, not because we're rotten but because every blemish, every pimple, every wart we have has been paraded to the public.
We can win this battle, I believe that with all of my heart. But it takes more than just talk and it takes more than just a few people.
Vicki
I don't agree. No one asked for these things. Glamis became a thorn in the sides of politicians and the politicians started putting the heat on BLM and Dept of Interior. We have been dragged into the public spotlight by the anti-access groups and the people who have the power to keep us open are (were) being forced to do something about it. They hear "limit visitor use" and "ban alcohol" and "put a dune-wide curfew in place" whispered to them by the anti-access groups and since they don't hear any solutions from anyone else, they start thinking that sounds easy enough.
We have to start making noise. We have to start letting them know what we want. We are the bastards of the OHV community, not because we're rotten but because every blemish, every pimple, every wart we have has been paraded to the public.
We can win this battle, I believe that with all of my heart. But it takes more than just talk and it takes more than just a few people.
Vicki
[quote]Glamis became a thorn in the sides of politicians [/quote]
How did Glamis become a thorn in their side? They never go there.
How did Glamis become a thorn in their side? They never go there.
They don't need to play in the sand, as long as the sandbox is in their spehere of influence. If some of their consituents start making noise about a blemish in their jurisdiction, we cannot expect them to ignore it. We certainly don't want them to ignore us when we come calling.
The anti-access groups don't just complain to the representatives that govern Glamis... they complain to their own representatives who complain to the Glamis representatives over coffee after breakfast.
The bad guys hit our representatives hard and often, from all sides. The representatives don't want trouble, they like a nice soft job and they don't necessarily stop to check out who's telling the truth. The bad guys create mountains out of molehills and because the good guys haven't been putting forth that same kind of effort, who are they going to listen to? We make it damn easy for them to succumb to anti-access pressure.
Vicki
The anti-access groups don't just complain to the representatives that govern Glamis... they complain to their own representatives who complain to the Glamis representatives over coffee after breakfast.
The bad guys hit our representatives hard and often, from all sides. The representatives don't want trouble, they like a nice soft job and they don't necessarily stop to check out who's telling the truth. The bad guys create mountains out of molehills and because the good guys haven't been putting forth that same kind of effort, who are they going to listen to? We make it damn easy for them to succumb to anti-access pressure.
Vicki
One could almost interpret that as saying that the old way of doing business (compromise and hope they go away) isn't working any more. If it ever has...
[quote]Whata bunch of CRAP! >:< >:< >:< >:< >:< >:<[/quote]
Absolutely.
But we still have to manage the managers... what now?
Vicki
Absolutely.
But we still have to manage the managers... what now?
Vicki
[quote]But I think you'd be surprised how many do-gooders actually agree with much of the over enforcement issues coming down the pike.[/quote]
Actually, no I wouldn't be surprised. It's probably the main reason I get so [angry?] [passionate?] [dogmatic?].
I hear the things you're talking about during meeting after meeting. The problem is, if someone else isn't there to provide some common sense, the powers that be actually think these do-gooders are speaking for duners.
If they are speaking for the majority, I'll back the eff off.
But if they're not, we need to get in there and make sure the people in control know it.
Vicki
Actually, no I wouldn't be surprised. It's probably the main reason I get so [angry?] [passionate?] [dogmatic?].
I hear the things you're talking about during meeting after meeting. The problem is, if someone else isn't there to provide some common sense, the powers that be actually think these do-gooders are speaking for duners.
If they are speaking for the majority, I'll back the eff off.
But if they're not, we need to get in there and make sure the people in control know it.
Vicki
Here is the BLM's news release regarding the fee increase:
Desert District Fee Demonstration Program to Expand
The Bureau of Land Management, California Desert District, is currently evaluating its fee demonstration program to include initiating or increasing fees at certain sites.
As funding strategies become more challenging, alternate sources of funding are needed in order to maintain or expand quality recreation experiences at sites throughout the BLM desert management area.
Specific business plans are being developed incorporating market analysis, fee collection strategies and customer feedback mechanisms in order to reach a fair and equitable value for visitors to public lands.
The California Desert Conservation Area became a fee demonstration site in 1998. Recreation fee programs in the desert range from collecting revenue in campgrounds, long-term visitor areas (LVTA), the Imperial Sand Dunes and Calico Early Mine Site, to special recreation permits and the Golden Passport program. Currently, fees range from $6.00 a day in some campgrounds to $125.00 for the seven month LTVA season pass.
The fees in the Imperial Dunes are currently $10.00 per week and $30.00 for a season pass. Fee demo money in the Imperial Sand Dunes has been used to increase law enforcement and emergency medical services during holiday weekends, improve campground facilities and provide management and maintenance at recreation sites. The business plans will address how fees will be utilized for all costs of management such as vegetative monitoring, trash pick up, rest room maintenance, rescue and law enforcement vehicles, and emergency medical supplies.
The BLM will seek public input from various working groups and the public at large during the implementation stage to insure that priorities are met.
Completion of the final business plans is expected by June 2003.
Desert District Fee Demonstration Program to Expand
The Bureau of Land Management, California Desert District, is currently evaluating its fee demonstration program to include initiating or increasing fees at certain sites.
As funding strategies become more challenging, alternate sources of funding are needed in order to maintain or expand quality recreation experiences at sites throughout the BLM desert management area.
Specific business plans are being developed incorporating market analysis, fee collection strategies and customer feedback mechanisms in order to reach a fair and equitable value for visitors to public lands.
The California Desert Conservation Area became a fee demonstration site in 1998. Recreation fee programs in the desert range from collecting revenue in campgrounds, long-term visitor areas (LVTA), the Imperial Sand Dunes and Calico Early Mine Site, to special recreation permits and the Golden Passport program. Currently, fees range from $6.00 a day in some campgrounds to $125.00 for the seven month LTVA season pass.
The fees in the Imperial Dunes are currently $10.00 per week and $30.00 for a season pass. Fee demo money in the Imperial Sand Dunes has been used to increase law enforcement and emergency medical services during holiday weekends, improve campground facilities and provide management and maintenance at recreation sites. The business plans will address how fees will be utilized for all costs of management such as vegetative monitoring, trash pick up, rest room maintenance, rescue and law enforcement vehicles, and emergency medical supplies.
The BLM will seek public input from various working groups and the public at large during the implementation stage to insure that priorities are met.
Completion of the final business plans is expected by June 2003.
The never ending drone of government in action! Just makes me insane! :twisted: Thanks again Vicki.
[quote][quote]But I think you'd be surprised how many do-gooders actually agree with much of the over enforcement issues coming down the pike.[/quote]
Actually, no I wouldn't be surprised. It's probably the main reason I get so [angry?] [passionate?] [dogmatic?].
I hear the things you're talking about during meeting after meeting. The problem is, if someone else isn't there to provide some common sense, the powers that be actually think these do-gooders are speaking for duners.
If they are speaking for the majority, I'll back the eff off.
But if they're not, we need to get in there and make sure the people in control know it.
Vicki[/quote]
I'm curiuos.. Who are the "do-gooders"? I would bet that it was most certainly the actions of the "bad-doers" that caused these actions to even be proposed to begin with. Don't get me wrong, I think the BLM should enforce the rules they have in place now, we don't need new ones.
Actually, no I wouldn't be surprised. It's probably the main reason I get so [angry?] [passionate?] [dogmatic?].
I hear the things you're talking about during meeting after meeting. The problem is, if someone else isn't there to provide some common sense, the powers that be actually think these do-gooders are speaking for duners.
If they are speaking for the majority, I'll back the eff off.
But if they're not, we need to get in there and make sure the people in control know it.
Vicki[/quote]
I'm curiuos.. Who are the "do-gooders"? I would bet that it was most certainly the actions of the "bad-doers" that caused these actions to even be proposed to begin with. Don't get me wrong, I think the BLM should enforce the rules they have in place now, we don't need new ones.
Myself, I wouldn't call them do-gooders buy I know the type he's referring to, so I didn't challenge the nickname. I would instead maybe call them the morality police.
I don't think we've gained any ground in the public relations fight since we became so careful, always walking on eggshells. On the other hand, I think Glamis has lost some of its sparkle. A prime example of what showed up when GlamisDunes.com had a picture on its front page of a bike jumping Gecko Road. Whether it was doctored or not, it was a cool picture and was a very cool stunt. Some people thought it should be removed because "what will people think if they see that... it's not safe." Sheesh. It's not safe. But it is Glamis. Would I do it? No. Was it illegal? Not as far as I could tell, but maybe it was. The point is, hiding some of the more extreme aspects of Glamis won't make "them" go away.
"Do-gooders?" There is a large contingent of people who believe if we throw enough money and law enforcement into Glamis the anti-access crowd will leave us alone. This contingent takes a hands-off approach to the problem, leaving it to the LEOs and land managers. I don't agree.
Many of these same people believe we're in the trouble we're in because people ride too fast, people ride naked, people drink beer, people get into fights. That's exactly what the anti-access groups want us to believe, so instead of facing the issues and dealing with life as we know it at Glamis, we snipe at each other and subtly support the change that we hope will save Glamis.
It hasn't worked and will not work. All I'm saying is I don't want anyone campaigning to stop the drags or saying "okay, maybe this curfew is best" on my behalf. And I don't want the morality police telling me I'm not worthy of riding in Glamis because I commit unsafe acts on my quad, wear out a blender a season or stay up past my bedtime.
Vicki
I don't think we've gained any ground in the public relations fight since we became so careful, always walking on eggshells. On the other hand, I think Glamis has lost some of its sparkle. A prime example of what showed up when GlamisDunes.com had a picture on its front page of a bike jumping Gecko Road. Whether it was doctored or not, it was a cool picture and was a very cool stunt. Some people thought it should be removed because "what will people think if they see that... it's not safe." Sheesh. It's not safe. But it is Glamis. Would I do it? No. Was it illegal? Not as far as I could tell, but maybe it was. The point is, hiding some of the more extreme aspects of Glamis won't make "them" go away.
"Do-gooders?" There is a large contingent of people who believe if we throw enough money and law enforcement into Glamis the anti-access crowd will leave us alone. This contingent takes a hands-off approach to the problem, leaving it to the LEOs and land managers. I don't agree.
Many of these same people believe we're in the trouble we're in because people ride too fast, people ride naked, people drink beer, people get into fights. That's exactly what the anti-access groups want us to believe, so instead of facing the issues and dealing with life as we know it at Glamis, we snipe at each other and subtly support the change that we hope will save Glamis.
It hasn't worked and will not work. All I'm saying is I don't want anyone campaigning to stop the drags or saying "okay, maybe this curfew is best" on my behalf. And I don't want the morality police telling me I'm not worthy of riding in Glamis because I commit unsafe acts on my quad, wear out a blender a season or stay up past my bedtime.
Vicki
Stonehedge I really want to know. Who is pushing for new rules?
The ASA's stance has been and continues to be that there are enough rules on the books already and that they just need to be enforced.
The ASA's stance has been and continues to be that there are enough rules on the books already and that they just need to be enforced.
Jason, not every "negative" post or opinion is directed at the ASA. There are many organizations and OHV leaders that could fit the description. Of all the OHV leadership meetings I've attended lately with the BLM, only one had ASA leadership present, so I couldn't possibly be targeting them.
This is simply a discussion, and very general.
Stop being so sensitive 8)
Vicki
This is simply a discussion, and very general.
Stop being so sensitive 8)
Vicki
Vicki, that response was not targeted at you - but rather direction at Stonehenge who has repeatedly made it clear that he does feel the ASA is asking for more and more rules and regulations which simply is not the case.
Thanks for the great information dissemination. I have been reading and lurking, however I do feel like this is a great cause to Champion, and would like to know how I might be able to help.
[quote]Thanks for the great information dissemination. I have been reading and lurking, however I do feel like this is a great cause to Champion, and would like to know how I might be able to help.[/quote]
Do you mean just the fee increase issue? Or getting Glamis back into the right hands?
Vicki
Do you mean just the fee increase issue? Or getting Glamis back into the right hands?
Vicki
[quote]The dunes has enough laws to last a million years, and has been fine, even before the weed, but some on our side are using it to push there (anti-type of person-agenda)...........to bad, cause the same people they are pushing out could be helping keeping it open, for all. But for all is not what some want. Sad, but it will be the main reason those don't stand the test of time.
_________________[/quote]
From: stonehenge
Now we agree on this what I want to know you must have a lot of a-hole friends that are pushing for more laws. I know of no one that wants more laws.
Name names and places >:<
Evil is every where.
If anyone reads this and supports the evil desguised as the truth, set them straight. No new rules.
This is the way it should be.
I respect your dune rights do you respect mine?
The CBD's of the world, do not respect us at all. Fighting among ourselves will only enhance the Bio-degenerates hold on the duners way of life.
Peace,
and not affraid to sign my real name, because I believe this:
All Eco-wacko orgs must be stopped at all costs.
efffff-the CBD
Steve Brooks
_________________[/quote]
From: stonehenge
Now we agree on this what I want to know you must have a lot of a-hole friends that are pushing for more laws. I know of no one that wants more laws.
Name names and places >:<
Evil is every where.
If anyone reads this and supports the evil desguised as the truth, set them straight. No new rules.
This is the way it should be.
I respect your dune rights do you respect mine?
The CBD's of the world, do not respect us at all. Fighting among ourselves will only enhance the Bio-degenerates hold on the duners way of life.
Peace,
and not affraid to sign my real name, because I believe this:
All Eco-wacko orgs must be stopped at all costs.
efffff-the CBD
Steve Brooks
But Steve - Weren't you just today saying that we need a new rule making Pallets illegal in the Dunes 
(Smile, man - I'm not trying to rail on ya just having some fun with ya.)
(Smile, man - I'm not trying to rail on ya just having some fun with ya.)
So how much higher are all the fee's gonna increase by? I dont see a problem with an increase as long as its going somewhere good.
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