April 30, 2003 BLM RAC meeting, (Resource Advisory Council) a BLM plant ecologist, The Nature Conservancy and the Fallon Paiute-Shoshone Tribe all recommended that BLM immediately close approximately 1000 acres of Sand Mountain to OHV use. They are making these recommendations based upon what the Nature Conservancy sums up as "the critical threat to viability of Sand Mountain and its unique suite of plants and invertebrates is degradation of the vegetated dunes through loss of plant cover. Loss of vegetative cover is from recreational vehicle use and abuse."

According to the rules surrounding management of recreation areas, the BLM can make emergency closures if they are concerned that resource damage is causing harm to the environment.

This area is used by over 50,000 people per year with many of them being from California.

The RAC decided that a "subgroup" should be formed to advise the BLM on if these closures should take place, what area if any closure would encompass and when they should take place. This subgroup will be made up of users, business representatives, environmental representatives, biologists, Indian Tribe, etc. There no limit to the number of people who can participate. This subgroup will also be used to advise the BLM on how to use Fee Demo money collected from users.

If you are interested in serving on this very important committee, please contact Jon Crowley, Friends of Sand Mountain at crowley9@pacbell.net or Elayn Briggs, BLM in Carson City, at elayn_briggs@nv.blm.gov.

At the April 30 meeting, Friends of Sand Mountain urged the BLM exhaust other means of limiting vegetation loss and to make sure that any decisions be made based upon good, peer-reviewed science. OHV users & businesses were also represented at the meeting by the ORBA, CORVA, CA4WDC, and the ASA.

If you would like to read more about this issue and others that pertain to Sand Mountain please go to the web site below. Friends of Sand Mountain

We need to have people get involved if we are going to keep this important area open to motorized use. I would ask you to contact Nevada BLM and let them know you do not support closure of this area and that any study should include the users and the business in the area.

It should be painfully obvious to all by now that motorized rec as we know it is impacting our natural areas in ways that cause other groups to notice its effects and to resist the continued use of the land for this recreation.

It's not just Glamis. I have read laundry lists of places that have been closed to mtorized rec over the past 10-15 years and more are on the horizon as evidenced by the movement to limit vehicle rec at Sand Mountain.

How does the motorized community respond? with irate counter suits and gathering numbers of voters to overturn legislation. This isn't going to make the problem (OHV impacts on the land) go away.

What the OHV community, led by CORVA, ORBA, BRC, ASA etc, needs to do is to self-manage the OPEN areas and set an standards for OHV riders to follow and for the whole world to see that OPEN areas can be maintained by the users. I'm talking self-imposed route designations, route cycling, route renovations, raven abatement, (not by shooting them) and of course continuation of the great trash cleanups that are already done several times a year by the OHV community.

With the growth of the OHV community and the closure of the many riding areas so far, it's not hard to see that more riders are having to cram into smaller places to ride, impacting more of mother nature. I think the enviro's can see this but could care less. It just makes their statements of enviromental abuse look more poignant.
The OHV community meanwhile is starting to become aware of what is happening to our sport and our lifestyle. With the money invested in this way of life, it won't be impossible to turn the tide back on the enviro's. It just takes time, effort, and dedication. The enviro's have been playing this game for a long time and know what rules to bend or break. The good news is that we can exploit those to our advantage and learn from them at the same time. In the near future will be a level playing field and that is the time when places like pismo, kelso, whitewater and others will be re-opened, all thanks to the diligance of the "Friends" groups and groups like the ASA, CORVA, the Blue Ribbon Coalition, DUNERs, and others.
They took these places almost without a fight. Can't wait to see how they react when the OHV'rs as a whole come knocking on the governments door to take their land back.

Extremely well said, Fireball. Very nice.

Ready or not, here we come!

Vicki

[quote]What the OHV community, led by CORVA, ORBA, BRC, ASA etc, needs to do is to self-manage the OPEN areas and set an standards for OHV riders to follow and for the whole world to see that OPEN areas can be maintained by the users. I'm talking self-imposed route designations, route cycling, route renovations, raven abatement, (not by shooting them) and of course continuation of the great trash cleanups that are already done several times a year by the OHV community.[/quote]
You say that we need to self-manage the open areas... The open areas are being TAKEN from us so that we have nothing to manage. Anti-Access groups will not leave us alone long enough to get any management done and they attack any attempt at management that we do.
"Self-imposed route designations" ??? How does this apply to the ISDRA? We already have self-imposed route designations... between major areas... but that is TRANSPORTATION... actual riding takes place in between, and at the ISDRA, the ROUTE is the place to AVOID. The route has restrictions, speedlimits and traffic. All of these things are counter-productive to the recreational aspect of Off-roading... That's why we find the most remote, most unused, large piece of land we can find. We found that and now it's being taken too.
What's wrong with shooting ravens if you want them abated?

Vor

[quote]How does the motorized community respond? with irate counter suits and gathering numbers of voters to overturn legislation. This isn't going to make the problem (OHV impacts on the land) go away.[/quote]

No, but it might make you GO AWAY! >:<


[quote] based upon what the Nature Conservancy sums up as "the critical threat to viability of Sand Mountain and its unique suite of plants and invertebrates is degradation of the vegetated dunes through loss of plant cover. Loss of vegetative cover is from recreational vehicle use and abuse."
[/quote]

It sounds awfully similar to the BS that the CBD spewed about the PMV! :roll:

The logic used by these idiots is absolutely insane! Let's see, the use of OHV's has increased 10 fold in the last decade. Yet the area for public use grows smaller and smaller with every passing day. This is do to the "science" provided by anti-access groups. Then after they squeeze more and more of the public into smaller and smaller areas, they complain about the impact! Sounds to me like they won't be happy until there are no open areas left! :x Oh wait, that was the plan all along, right **** sky! With every single attack that is brought upon us by these (expletive) idiots, the more determined I become to defeating these socialist (expletive)! :x :x :x :x :x

[quote] raven abatement, (not by shooting them)[/quote]

Missed that one in my moment of fury! >:<

So how EXACTLY do you do that? :roll: Are we all supposed to take "Raven Abatement" classes or something? And why is the OHV community suddenly responsible for the "ABATEMENT" of the Raven? As a species, I guess the Raven is not as important to the greens. That is until they have been "abated" to the point were the greens can use it to their advantage. Then they will pick up their torch and rush to defend these noble creatures! As long as it helps in their cause! :roll: **** sky, and his type are the biggest HYPOCRITES that I have had the dis-pleasure of interacting with! GOD help us, if these people get their way! :dis:

Raven abatement is an interesting issue...

I'm wondering where all the concerned citizens were when the new dump was being approved. Nothing like inviting a whole slew of predators with that dandy little move.

Oh that's right, unless the predators are riding OHVs, those big brave anti-access groups aren't a bit concerned.

Almost forgot myself for a moment and tried to pretend it really IS about the species, silly me :roll:

Vicki

What were you thinking?! :roll:

[quote]Raven abatement is an interesting issue...

I'm wondering where all the concerned citizens were when the new dump was being approved. Nothing like inviting a whole slew of predators with that dandy little move.

Oh that's right, unless the predators are riding OHVs, those big brave anti-access groups aren't a bit concerned.

Almost forgot myself for a moment and tried to pretend it really IS about the species, silly me :roll:

Vicki[/quote]

Very good point Vicki!

I don't have the article handy but several years back, the fish and wildlife (I think) or one of the government agencies realized that the ravens were eating the baby desert toroise. They were going to do a bird kill or something along those lines in order to cut down on the population of birds. Guess who sued them in court so they couldn't do it?

http://www.werc.usgs.gov/sandiego/pdfs/RavenMgt.pdf

Well I see that our local troll has make another appearance. :x As usual he didn't answer any questions. :roll: I clicked on the link and it went to the study that jet mentioned. It talked about Raven management and get this, encourages the shooting or trapping of Ravens in areas that are determined to be "DTNA" (Desert Tortious Natural Areas). Isn't the entire desert considered DTNA? So I guess **** sky is now advocating the use of shooting and poison in the "ABATEMENT" of the Raven? :roll2: And get this, although I didn't read the entire study (39 pages), the several pages that I did read never mentioned OHV activity as a cause of the decline of the Desert tortious! :shock: It stated that the increased human population in the DTNAs was a contributing factor because Ravens are opportunistic predators, and thrive in the abundance of the increased human population. OHV's being directly or in-directly responsible for the Desert Tortious's decline was not mentioned! Imagine that! :roll:

Another interesting read on the desert tortoise is here


Click on the binoculars and type in tortoise.

This is a presentation by a Dr. Berry.

Go to around page 245 to 250 for an interesting question and answer session between one of the DAC board members and Dr. Berry.

The gist of the story is that after 30 years of studying the god damn thing, not shit has been done to actually save the thing other than to close access off to the least harmful activities (human) and do nothing about the major causes of the tortoise demise; predators and desease.

I was there at this meeting and reading back through it, now I am pissed off again for the day. Fuck all of you anti access lying extremist sons of bitches. >:< >:< >:< >:<

That was a fun moment as I recall... had her on the ropes until Salt cut it off.

I protested and was given the chance to submit the remainder of my questions, assured that answers would be forthcoming. Questions were submitted in writing.

Still waiting for the answers.

By the way... it was the lack of movement in actually protecting the desert tortoise that prompted this lawsuit:

[quote]PUBLIC LAND ACCESS GROUPS FILE SUIT AGAINST DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR AND SUBORDINATE AGENCIES
Motorized Recreation Organizations Charge Federal Agencies With Impeding Recovery of Threatened Desert Tortoise
SALT LAKE CITY, UT - A coalition of motorized recreation organizations filed suit today against the Department of Interior and two of its subordinate agencies in Federal District Court in Utah for knowingly and negligently impeding the recovery of the threatened Mojave Desert Tortoise, violating the federal Endangered Species Act.

Also named in the suit along with the Department of Interior are the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service and the Bureau of Land Management.

Plaintiffs in the case include the American Motorcycle Association (AMA) District 37, Utah Shared Access Alliance (USA-ALL), the Off-Road Business Association (ORBA), California Off-Road Vehicle Association (CORVA) and the San Diego Off-Road Coalition (SDORC).

The organizations claim that the federal agencies failed to take reasonable steps to arrest the spread of Upper Respiratory Tract Disease, which is suspected to be the primary cause of the dramatic decline in the population of the desert tortoise.

"The Department of Interior's efforts to recover the desert tortoise have been an abject failure," said David Hubbard, an environmental attorney who filed the suit on behalf of the recreation groups. "Millions of dollars have been spent and millions of acres of federal land have been closed off to public use, yet the tortoise continues to spiral towards extinction."

The desert tortoise, found in the Mojave and Colorado/Sonoran deserts of California, southern Nevada, southwestern Utah and northwestern Arizona, was first listed as threatened in 1989. Since then, the U.S. Government has designated more than six million acres as critical habitat for the species and has spent more than $100 million on tortoise recovery.

A member of the coalition, Michelle Cassella of AMA District 37, said, "the federal agencies are being driven to closure decisions by environmental lawsuits and fail to consider the science or economical impact of the communities that are affected. Recent studies funded by the U.S. government itself clearly indicate that in many cases the public has little or no adverse impact on threatened species."

"Speaking for the thousands of stakeholders who have an interest in this critical issue, we are appalled that our federal agencies have not shown any efforts to implement an immediate strategy to address known existing problems such as Upper Respiratory Tract Disease, herpes disease, shell diseases, or the raven predation problem," said Roy Denner, president and CEO of ORBA. "Their remedy has been to remove cattle, vehicles, and humans from desert tortoise habitat, which we believe will eventually lead to the total demise of the tortoise."

Additionally, the suit charges that the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service has failed to review and adjust the 1994 Desert Tortoise Recovery Plan, even though the plan, by its own terms, requires such review and adjustment every three to five years.

"We are not seeking any compensatory damages with this filing," Cassella said. "We simply are demanding that these government agencies comply with their own regulations and take a close examination of the millions of acres that have been needlessly closed to recreationists, cattle ranchers, and other groups whose livelihood depends on the desert. The desert tortoise will soon be extinct if the federal government does not radically change its recovery approach." [/quote]

It showed in a limited forum that the whole thing is a big load of BS. I am sure that a good many people really want to save the tortoise. The problem is all the mental masturbation that is being encouraged by those with a different agenda. That of controling people. The tortoise is losing, we are losing. The only ones winning are the anti-access ass-holes and their lawyers.

QUOTE

The tortoise is losing, we are losing. The only ones winning are the anti-access ass-holes and their lawyers.

It's to bad that the anti-access peeps are using the DT as an excuse to close the desert. If they applied the same energy to finding a cure or treatment for URD, helped finance Raven "ABATEMENT" and if mother nature would kick down with a little rain. What a difference it would make in the DT's future! Instead they spend millions of dollars trying to keep us off our land in guise of "helping" the DT.

QUOTE

The gist of the story is that after 30 years of studying the god damn thing, not **** has been done to actually save the thing other than to close access off to the least harmful activities (human) and do nothing about the major causes of the tortoise demise; predators and desease.

scientists don't know what do do about URDS(Upper respiratory disease syndrome). It will take more research and the $ to fund it to find out more about URDS. Has ASA made a contribution to the scientific research studying URDS?

predators. there is little known about raven habits. The link posted above was published less than a year ago, so it's pretty much the state of the art.

off-road vehicles. Well, we know we can ask off-roaders to be a little more careful about where they ride and what time of year and the extra concern needed to limit the impacts of their recreation on the rare wildlife that inhabits this public land. there's no question that human acitivities such as off-roading are understood a lot better that URDS or ravens. So that's where the presecriptions begin--with limiting the effects of OHV rec. Makes sense to me.

QUOTE

Has ASA made a contribution to the scientific research studying URDS?

Has CBD, PEERS, Seirra Club, Earth First, WWF, Bluewater, OR any other of the Anti-access orgs! :x

30 years of studying and the best your people can come up with is we need more time and money. Talk about bullsh!t.

Did anyone think of asking a vetrinary doctor instead of some bureaucratic hack on how deal with animal diseases?

Let's see, there is a highly CONTAGIOUS disease in the population. So we stop all human activity that isn't happy and PC according to you ECO NAZIs because it is the easy route to take regardless of its effect. Next you want to create corridors for the tortoise population to freely roam and interact. This includes diseased and non diseased populations.

Yeah, I am convinced you extremists got it all knowed up. :roll:

So you say do something even if it is wrong. It makes it look like you care and you can bilk the unsuspecting public out of more money. Great philosophy you all have there. Maybe I should switch sides and apply for a job. Your people have great job security f*cking the American tax payer in the name of environmentalism.

You people are no better than any other fanatical religeon. Instead of burning people at the stake or flying planes into buildings you wreak your havock amongst the non believers in the courtrooms of this country. All because your almighty "Head Of Lettuce" cries out for justice and commands you to tyrannize your fellow man.

Face it, your people care less about the environment than they do about people who don't subscribe to their philosophy. You are willing to use the full force of government to make them conform. And read that as saying you are willing to kill people that don't conform to the edicts of your Head Of Lettuce. Of course you will hide that with euphamisms and newspeak but a rose by any other name is still a rose.

And you are not "asking off-roaders to be a little more careful about where they ride".

You are advocating large scale and arbitrary closings of millions of acres of land regardless of the impact to humans and regardless of whether it would actually do anything to save a species.

Ah, he got you! :shock:

This desert tortoise situation is appalling and I'm glad ORBA, CORVA, AMA, USA-ALL and SDORC filed a lawsuit to maybe finally get some help for the tortoise. It's about time. Millions and millions of dollars have been flushed down the drain because no one was closely watching the people who were watching the tortoise.

But one thing I hope we all keep in mind is that even the people who were put in charge of helping the tortoise and neglected their duties are NOT bluesky's people.

He is using them as just another way to hang with the cool kids. He only knows enough to fool us into thinking he actually gives a damn, then spews nonsense to get everyone riled up.

Once a troll always a troll and this one has had years of practice.

Vicki

[quote]Ah, he got you! :shock:

Vicki[/quote]

[img]http://jm.g.free.fr/smileys/41616-4.gif[/img]

RVs Invade Sacred Sites of American Indians

By Mark Vanderhoff, Reno Gazette-Journal / Associated Press


RENO, Nev. — A long time ago, a giant serpent left the Walker River and burrowed into the land, according to the lore of the Fallon Paiute-Shoshone Tribe. Today, the serpent still lies in the ground, creating what many call Sand Mountain.

"It's a place where our people rarely go, only the spiritual [leaders] and elders," said Rochanne Downs, cultural resources director for the tribe, explaining that the site has special meaning.

Yet riders on off-road vehicles continually race up and down the giant sand dune — a sight that deeply disturbs many of the Fallon Paiute-Shoshone.

The tribe once referred to the blowing sounds of the "singing sands," Downs said, but now a buzz of engines emanates from the dune.

Black specks, never before seen by tribal members or their ancestors, now streak the sand from carbon deposited by the vehicles' engines, Downs said.

"You can't do the spiritual things because you don't know if an [off-road vehicle] is going to come over the hill and run you over," Downs said. "You can't even hear yourself think."

In Nevada, the long-standing clash of values between American Indians and the descendants of settlers now plays out in a new way:

Often, those who say they love the outdoors are committing the equivalent of vandalizing another culture's church when they visit their favorite spots.

Many hikers, sandboarders and motorized vehicle riders don't know the story of Sand Mountain.

John Crowley, an off-roader and president of Friends of Sand Mountain, said he only recently heard from a Bureau of Land Management official that a tribal legend about the area existed.

Friends of Sand Mountain organizes cleanups, educates riders about environmental and safety issues, and has worked with the BLM to study a rare butterfly in the area.

"Obviously, we want to respect [Sand Mountain]," he said. "But right now it's owned by the federal government and managed by the BLM for motorized recreation, and that's what we're using it for.

"I'm not saying that I don't care. I just don't fully understand all their beliefs. I'd like to learn more."

When visitors come to the Pyramid Lake Cultural Center asking where the sacred spots are, Ben Aleck tells them, "They're all around you."

American Indians regard the whole world as sacred, so when non-Indians talk about "sacred sites," they reveal their lack of familiarity with tribal culture, said Aleck, cultural resources manager for the Pyramid Lake Paiute.

Because of damage inflicted by visitors, some areas have been restricted to tribal members. Other places, such as Anaho Island, a federally protected island where migratory birds nest, are off-limits because of their ecological significance.

Ancestors of the Pyramid Lake Paiutes fought off encroaching settlers and held on to some of their land. Today, their reservation encircles Pyramid Lake and stretches along the Truckee River.

It hasn't been developed like Lake Tahoe, which prides itself as an outdoors destination.

"The tribe has always been approached about developing a casino on the lake, but always the stance of the tribe is to keep away from that type of development," Aleck said.

Aleck said it's fine when tribes search for ways to make money off their resources, "but I think the tribe here has seen the value beyond the dollar and I think we're fortunate for that."



At Tahoe's Cave Rock, sharing the land is at the heart of a dispute.

For thousands of years, the Washoe tribes of northern Nevada followed the seasons from Lake Tahoe to the Pine Nut Mountains to the valley between.

While the rest of the tribe fished, hunted and gathered food in the summer around Lake Tahoe, American Indian doctors would go to a place called de ek wa dep push to meditate. The site, now called Cave Rock, is at the center of Washoe mythology.

In another age, according to Washoe legend, a warring tribe kept the Washoe prisoners. The god of the world set the Washoe free by putting their captors in the cave below Cave Rock and trapping them underwater.

The legend says powerful spirits called water babies lived in an underground cave, and a monster also lived in a cave in the area.

"Cave Rock was a place where only our medicine men went. The rest of the tribe walked around it," said Bill Dancing Feather, cultural resources manager for the Washoe.

Although a few tribal members still use the rock, Dancing Feather said that its visitors these days consist mostly of picnickers enjoying the views and climbers who challenge themselves on popular routes high above the lake.

In December, the Forest Service announced a proposal to ban all climbing from the rock to preserve the cultural value to the tribe. Climbers who have worked to maintain access to Cave Rock for years bristled.

"Cave Rock is a part of me; I've climbed it so many times over the years," said Carey Houston, 34, of Nevada City, Calif. "I can't just give it up."

[quote]
When visitors come to the Pyramid Lake Cultural Center asking where the sacred spots are, Ben Aleck tells them, "They're all around you." [/quote]

EXACTLY! If we were to go by this reasoning most of the US would be closed off due to the "cultural significance" of most every topographical landmark nationwide. The Native Americans (as did the Greeks in years even further past-obviously not in the USA though) made up stories about hundreds of thousands of rivers, lakes, mountains and caves all across the country-does that mean they should ALL be off-limits to the rest of us?
Who knows BS....maybe YOUR home was built on a piece of land the Indians considered "sacred". You going to rip it down and return it to it's natural state because of a story made up about it a thousand years ago?

Didn't think so.... :evil:

[quote]He only knows enough to fool us into thinking he actually gives a damn, then spews nonsense to get everyone riled up.

Once a troll always a troll and this one has had years of practice.[/quote]

Vicki

Isn't it convenient that when all else fails they suddenly get religion. Unless of course it involves placing a cross on something.

Their argument wouldn't last 5 minutes if they were worshiping the Christian God there. But their "Head of Lettuce" that they choose to worship is somehow more worthy.

[quote] But their "Head of Lettuce" that they choose to worship is somehow more worthy.[/quote]

Or that aborted looking thing some troll used to have as his avatar!

Julie

I love the way so many anti-access people use the same two conflicting arguments:

" The sound of those OHV's is so disturbing you can't go there and have a peacefull time anymore "

and in the same breath

" You can't even hike because you never know when one will come over a ridge and land on you ".

Ok, so which is it. Can you hear them for miles away or are they so quiet you can't hear them even when they're right on top of you? Can't have it both ways guys.

As for getting religion - $$$ will always fix that. Just look around Yuma. The Quechan tribe is fighting tooth and nail to stop the new Glamis Gold mine and helping to close the dunes - but they've got no problem with the mining of black mountian (their single MOST spiritual place) which is literally tearing the mountian down. Why? They get a cut from the mining of black mountian but not from the dunes or gold mine.

Why is that everyone can see this but no one will actually speak up and actually point out the emperer has no clothes? And now that I say this, there are thousands, maybe millions, of us that do see it and point it out yet the rest of the crowd just stands there slack jawed and lets all this crap happen.

Hey thats not fair. How come Blusky has a bigger avatar than me:(

[quote]Hey thats not fair. How come Blusky has a bigger avatar than me:([/quote]

You ever see those kids with the big heads? It similar to that.

LMAO ^^^^

[quote]Hey thats not fair. How come Blusky has a bigger avatar than me:([/quote]

Man, with straight-lines like that, sometimes it's really hard to be a good girl! :dis:

Vicki

You wouldn't be referring to making one thing bigger because something else is smaller would you? :mrgreen:

QUOTE

You wouldn't be referring to making one thing bigger because something else is smaller would you?  :mrgreen:  :lol:  :lol:

Nope:) Not at all.