The BLM has released the new RAMP- see here:

http://www.ca.blm.gov/elcentro/isdra_feis.html

Julie

Here are the maps they are refering to..

Here are links to maps. Helps so your not downloading the dang thing a dozen times...

Areas defined..
http://www.ca.blm.gov/pdfs/elcentro_pdfs/F...P/rampmap04.jpg

Alcohol Areas??
http://www.ca.blm.gov/pdfs/elcentro_pdfs/F...P/rampmap05.jpg

Cerfew areas??
http://www.ca.blm.gov/pdfs/elcentro_pdfs/F...P/rampmap06.jpg
(Olds, Comp, Drags, Patton Valley, Test hill, Comp South.. WOW, thats alot of cerfews..

North Area
http://www.ca.blm.gov/pdfs/elcentro_pdfs/F...P/rampmap08.jpg

Gecko area
http://www.ca.blm.gov/pdfs/elcentro_pdfs/F...P/rampmap09.jpg

Management area
http://www.ca.blm.gov/pdfs/elcentro_pdfs/F...P/rampmap10.jpg

Adaptive Management area (Closed areas - Hill 6 the wall, Plane, Ceiling, Tube 1 & 2)
http://www.ca.blm.gov/pdfs/elcentro_pdfs/F...P/rampmap11.jpg

Ogilby Management area
http://www.ca.blm.gov/pdfs/elcentro_pdfs/F...P/rampmap12.jpg

Dunebuggy flats area (along canal between roadrunner and pair a dice
http://www.ca.blm.gov/pdfs/elcentro_pdfs/F...P/rampmap13.jpg

Buttercup management area
http://www.ca.blm.gov/pdfs/elcentro_pdfs/F...P/rampmap14.jpg

Alright.. here is some of the meat of the RAMP that might affect us in Glamis

AW # 28. Develop a tool to ban alcohol outside of the designated camping areas
if needed to maintain law and order. (See Map 5.) If enacted, this potential ban
would significantly reduce the level of alcohol related incidents within the ISDRA
and aid in the overall enforcement of alcohol related violations.

AW # 29. Develop a tool to establish temporary closure or curfew / restricted
areas in areas that are experiencing a high level of lawlessness. The potential
closure areas may include, but are not limited to, the 6 major OHV congregation
points: Competition Hill north and south, Oldsmobile Hill, Test Hill, Patton
Valley and the sand drags.

AW # 30. ... ...
Community Service Programs in lieu of fines have been suggested such as
weekend trash clean up within the ISDRA. This would also serve to educate the
violators on the land ethics. Other suggestions are a web or classroom based land
ethics course similar in scope to traffic school...

AW # 35. Maintain, post and enforce the following speed limitations: all sand
highway segments near zones of recreational use concentration, the Wash Road
and the road entering Dune Buggy Flats, Gecko Road and Grays Well Road.
Establish, post and enforce a speed limitation in Gecko Loop Campground, Key
Hole Campground, Midway Campground and Buttercup Key Hole Camping
Area.


GLM # 1. Construct pit toilets in the Glamis Flats and within 100 feet of the road
between washes 4 – 6 to meet the sanitary needs of the visitors.

SO you want to know about the closures right??

Its sort of long but it beats sifting through 1-- pages of "stuff".. Here is what they say..

Habitat conservation will be achieved through the classification of a limited access
interior dune adaptive management area, characterized by contiguous east-west sensitive
species habitat. The adaptive use area would be accessed via permit. Visitor supply
ranges would be established to provide a high quality day-use semi-primitive motorized
recreation opportunity for visitors, with special chances for small groups of family and
friends to enjoy a sense of remoteness and tranquility, the sights and sounds of nature, to
learn about sand dune ecology, to explore, to practice good stewardship, and feel inspired
by the awe of the ISDRA.

The management objective in the Adaptive Management Area is to provide for high
quality, unique world-class day-use semi-primitive motorized recreation opportunity for
ATV, motorcycle, truck, dune buggy and other OHV activities. The management
objective is also to provide an area for non-vehicular recreational activities such as
hiking, backpacking, photography, wildlife viewing, etc. The recreation visitor supply
for the Adaptive Management Area would be 75 groups of no more than 7 vehicles per
group (no more than 525 vehicles total) per day during the visitation season. Hikers or
visitors seeking other forms of non-vehicular access in the Adaptive Management area
must obtain a permit, but they will not be counted as a part of the 525 OHV permitted
users.

The Adaptive Management Area would be open from dawn to dusk during October 15 to
March 31 of each year. This seasonal use is to allow the conservation of natural
resources such as lizards that live in the area. This visitor supply was developed to
protect the natural resources in the Adaptive Management Area and also to allow a semiprimitive
motorized recreation opportunity. During the first year, visitor data would be
collected along with biological data and adjustments to the number of visitors would be
made accordingly on a periodic basis.

85
Access to the Adaptive Management Area would be by permit only, except for
administrative and law enforcement purposes. In order to obtain a permit, the driver of
each vehicle must complete a resource conservation program. Each individual walking
into the Adaptive Management Area will be required to complete the resource
conservation program. The program will be modified to meet the special needs of users
such as children and handicapped individuals, as requested. For example, the program
material may be read to some individuals. When requesting a permit, each vehicle and
driver must be identified. One permit would be valid for one group of up to 7 vehicles for
a period of up to seven days. A day use period is defined as a period from sunrise to
sunset. Reservations and/or multiple reservations could be made in advance. For the first
year all permits would be available on site in order to assess visitor numbers and patterns.
In future years, a maximum of 70% of all permits would be issued by reservation and
30% would be issued in person at the Cahuilla Ranger Station. Should reservations not
meet the 70% maximum, the balance of permits will be made available at the Cahuilla
Ranger Station. Reservations may be made for one to seven days based on availability.
Permittees making reservations could receive all materials, including a permit, through
the mail. A permit would not be authorized until all signatures have been signed. Each
permit issued would include printed environmental education material including
information on sensitive plant and animal species, other sensitive resources, safety
materials, and general stipulations for use of the area. A permit holder must sign that
he/she has read and understands the printed material and stipulations. Each vehicle
within a group that is issued a permit would be provided a permit flag to be placed
directly under the vehicle’s existing safety flag. The permit flag is easily identifiable by
BLM from the ground and air. Vehicles within the Adaptive Management Area without
a permit and BLM issued safety flag would be issued a citation for being in the area
without authorization. Permit holders would be allowed to access the Adaptive
Management Area through the boundary, except not through the microphyll woodlands
on the east side of the management area. BLM will prepare a supplemental rule for the
enforcement of the permit process in the Adaptive Management Area.

:roll:

Doesnt sound to baad to me.

I like GLM #3 - Grade wash road regulary.

That would be nice for the long drive to 13.5. Lets see if it will happen.

An Adaptive Management Area is UNACCEPTABLE!
They've already said that there is no need for closures to protect the PMV or anything else.
This RESERVATION SYSTEM will be just like Gecko Campground. They will be SNAPPED UP QUICKLY and then there will be none available for you and I. And, I can garentee that they will cost MONEY$$$.

This is a compromise. The original war cry when the closures went up was...
ACCEPT NO COMPROMISE!

I will be posting directions for your letters of protest. There is still a protest period!

Vor

I don't know if I am just stupid or what. But my question is:

When it says only 525 vehicles allowed per day and you have to have a permit, is that just for the areas that are closed right now or is that for all of the glamis dunes?

I hardly ever go on the big weekends because of all the accident's and the drunken fools that go and cause accidents. So my question is (if anyone knows), how many vehicle's are usually there on an off weekend.

Its just for the adaptive managment area

Yeah I agree. It will be like trying to get golf reservations for Torrey Pines. Just cannot do it..

what about the moron who gets a permit for 2 vehicles. There is still room for 5 more but it will not be used.. and these permits are for 7 days! Can you pass it on? Can you turn it in early?
Can we just make these flags ourselves and screw the whole system?

Peeps in Brawley and Elcentro will snatch up the ones from the field office before anyone can..

Bannin alcohol in the dunes as a resort to control the idiots at olds and comp ? :rant: seems a bit excessive when they can already just close the areas..

LAST...

HOW can they enforce all this when they cannot enfore the existing rules? Just more crap and regulations..

So what your saying is you dont like it?

I was refering to the adaptive managment plan when I said it didnt sound to bad to me. (for the record) It did say you could get these permits by mail. Having my own flag was the first thing that came to my mind.

Chum-from the way I read it the permits can be requested for 1 to 7 days, which is better than how it originally read in the DRAMP which said they would be good for 7 days, which would cut out others if you only needed it for 1 or 2 days.
For those of you having problems getting into the docs, this is only for the large closure. The smaller closure off Roadrunner is gone-one of the few positives about the RAMP.
Julie

One other positive-they will NOT be taking over Osborn for the new ranger station. They are still talking about building one, but at the same site as the existing one. Osborn will still be taken over by the LEO's as "communication central" for the major holidays, but at least it will still be open for the duners on other weekends.
Julie

QUOTE

what about the moron who gets a permit for 2 vehicles. There is still room for 5 more but it will not be used.. and these permits are for 7 days!  :(  Can you pass it on? Can you turn it in early?   Can we just make these flags ourselves and screw the whole system?

They don't say anything about the price of these permits. If they make it so it wouldn't be worth it for only 2 buggies, maybe that would deter some from buying them. I can already see the black market for the permits. So what do you think these things will cost? :roll:

DH-
The problem with the AMA is that it should not exist AT ALL. There has been no proof to show we are hurting any plants or wildlife at the ISDRA and until there is, it is unfair that we have to deal with more area being closed off to us. Plus, historically, very few people have used that area but now it is going to cost money and time (and the possibility of not being able to get a permit) for those who do want to go there. If there was a reason for it, fine I'd accept that, but "the best available science" shows the PMV is thriving and that our (OHV'ers) impact on them or wildlife is minimal at best.
Julie

Im gonna read it over the weekend, so where exactly is the adaptive area in your maps chum? is it just the extra border area, did they open up all they way to 8 now?

I think there really shouldnt be any compromise otherwise it just gives way to future land grabs by the CBD/SC....

Never mind found it, its that area south of China toward 8

Duane-No word on that yet and it is pretty hard to even guess. This is sort of a rough guess though, based on the info in the RAMP:

The program is supposed to be self supporting. They say the program will cost approximately $95,000 a year to operate. The hardest thing to figure is how many permits will be sold. At 75 a day, that could be used for a week, we are looking at 300 a month-more if people take them for less than a week and they can sell another one to cover the other part of the week. At 300 a month though, multiplied by the 8 months the area would be open, you'd be looking at 2400 permits a year. $95,000 divided by 2400 would leave you right at $40 a permit.

I may be way off-who knows how they will end up figuring this out, there are so many variables. Until they give us a number, we really aren't going to know.

Julie

The AMA is basically the large closure that has been in effect since 2000-looks like they opened a border along the western edge all the way down to dune buggy flats, but it is hard to tell just how far into the dunes that goes, if at all.
Julie

One change-it does look as if the WALL is now OUTSIDE the closed areas! The map shows it as still being inside (but unmarked) but if you read the Glamis Management Area, page 80, Hill 6 (The Wall) is now part of that area and as such should be open!
Julie

Tried to copy and paste from the doc, but couldn't get it to work. The exact reading concerning the Wall is:

"The Wall Hill #6 is included in this Management Area."

This appears under Glamis Management (GLM) Area and is on page 80.

Julie

Im only on pg 20, but does it say anywhere when this goes into effect??

Ooops-messed up on my numbers above. Thought I remembered it was open Oct-May and it is actually Oct-MARCH-so only 5 1/2 months.

300x 5.5=1650. $95K /1650=about $58.00

Again Duane-just a guess-and they may figure it out some entirely different way.

Julie

If people are having a tough time downloading (seems the blm's servers are hammered so people can go here and get it)

RAMP @ z400.net

Looks like I'm loosing at least one camping area completely due to curfews and will have to actually drive somewhere else to drink as my other regular camping area is now a non-drinking area.

Seems kind of counterproductive. And I know there are quite a few other people who camp in that area as well - suddenly we'll all have to be drunk drivers if we want to have a drink at the end of the day since sitting in camp and having a cold one will now be illegal

No long term vending anymore by the store either, only at Gecko now. Only from fri-mon now...

I like this statement on 83:

Over the past years BLM staff have entered the base of Competition Hill and been surrounded and out numbered by the visitors. Currently, BLM staff will not enter the area to provide law enforcement or emergency medical service at night without significant backup to ensure their own safety. At night many veteran visitors stay away from Competition Hill for their own safety.

[quote]suddenly we'll all have to be drunk drivers if we want to have a drink at the end of the day since sitting in camp and having a cold one will now be illegal [/quote] Thats the same crap they are trying up here, except it's for anywhere in the sand.

[quote]This is a compromise. The original war cry when the closures went up was...
ACCEPT NO COMPROMISE!
[/quote]

I agree 100%. We cannot just lay down and accept this. Here is my question though. We know that this is just a compromise from the BLM but we also know that this is just another way to make money, again charging the public to use public land. But, what would the BLM do if nobody bought any of the passes? Would this be a complete backfire on the BLM after the cough up 95k to get the program rolling? Again, the AMA is not acceptable and must be fought but if it goes through, I say we let the BLM keep the permits and not put another single dollar in their pockets.

I hope they make those hikers wear whips too :roll:
Hate to come up over a dune and run one ( thats probably all there will ever be) over

I agree with you guys there should be no compromise on the AMA, however I believe the USFWS will be successful in cramming it down our throats even if we get the PMV delisted. We must take up studies on all the "sensitive" species of concern so we can prove that they are doing fine. This was all laid out in the USFWS opinion on the RAMP. Then there is also congressional intent. When they release what is going to be the AMA from WSA status they made it "limited use".

I'm with you NO COMPROMISE and we should fight until there is no more fight, but being a realist, our best bet is to prove there is no need for it with science. This fight will continue for years and it's gonna cost a fortune.

In my opinion we don't want the impending lawsuits to keep the RAMP from being implimented. Let's take what they are giving us and fight for the rest. Guarentee the CBD will attempt to block it right out of the gate. We're going to have to counter, it's going to get ugly folks...

[quote]One change-it does look as if the WALL is now OUTSIDE the closed areas! The map shows it as still being inside (but unmarked) but if you read the Glamis Management Area, page 80, Hill 6 (The Wall) is now part of that area and as such should be open!
Julie[/quote]

This was a huge battle during the review process. I remember the moment this was discussed and I'm awfully glad to see that we were listened to on this part.

As for the rest, I'm still digesting it. We camped with Mike330R (Mike Lyon) this weekend and when he arrived on Friday he brought me a copy of the RAMP (how nice... something to practice my cursing skills on).

There is a lot to be grumbling about with this RAMP and (sorry about the delay; had sand in my ears) DUNERS will be submitting a press release tomorrow. Send me your loudest grumbles.

Vicki

Sorry, I forgot to mention something...

This RAMP was discussed A LOT this weekend with a full camp and many visitors. Excellent discussions with excellent comments and protest material.

The thing is, with this process, you cannot protest something you believe should have been changed unless you had originally made the comment. The good news is, much of what apparently needs to be protested are items that were commented on in the draft process. That means we have a right to address it again. We made some headway with our initial comments... let's see if we can't continue with that through the protest period.

THIS IS YOUR PLAYGROUND and the BLM is your playground manager. Tell your playground manager what you want. If you didn't make individual comments or didn't make comments that you wish to protest now, that's okay... someone did and they'll protest it for you.

If you don't want to write directly, write to me. We have thirty days. Let's make them count.

Vicki

[quote]what about the moron who gets a permit for 2 vehicles. There is still room for 5 more but it will not be used.. and these permits are for 7 days![/quote]

Absolutely true. Let's say I take a permit on Thursday and then leave on Saturday. My slot is reserved until the following Thursday. Maybe I want to go smell the flowers all my myself. I am the group and the remaining 6 are wasted.

[quote]Can you pass it on? [/quote]

No. Each permittee will have to sign individually, so I can't pick one up for Bryan, or pick up all 7 and pass them out to our group.

[quote]Can you turn it in early? [/quote]

No.

[quote]Can we just make these flags ourselves and screw the whole system?[/quote]

Just like the fee passes, of course there will be room for fraud, but even if you make your own flag you will still have to carry the permit and your permit will have to match the list of people who have taken the conservation course and signed for a permit.

[quote]Peeps in Brawley and Elcentro will snatch up the ones from the field office before anyone can.. [/quote]

Worse then that, are the anti-access people who are known for doing exactly that. It's happened for years in other permit-only areas.

[quote]Bannin alcohol in the dunes as a resort to control the idiots at olds and comp ? :rant: seems a bit excessive when they can already just close the areas.. [/quote]

Very true. And there are already laws in place that would control the idiots, if they would only enforce them first we wouldn't have to resort to these drastic measures. What worries me about the ban is the people who normall savor that nice cold beer on top of their favorite dune will no longer put the empty back in their cooler, lest they get caught consuming alcohol outside their camp area. There will be a LOT more buried cans now then ever.

[quote]LAST...

HOW can they enforce all this when they cannot enfore the existing rules? Just more crap and regulations..[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.

Vicki

If anyone has a copy of the comments they submitted, I sure could use them. Please e-mail me.

Vicki

[quote][quote]what about the moron who gets a permit for 2 vehicles. There is still room for 5 more but it will not be used.. and these permits are for 7 days![/quote]

Absolutely true. Let's say I take a permit on Thursday and then leave on Saturday. My slot is reserved until the following Thursday. [/quote]

Vicki-
As I pointed out in my earlier post, this appears to be changed from the version in the DRAMP. The RAMP now reads that the permits will be good "for one group of up to 7 vehicles for UP TO seven days"-no longer tying up a permit for seven days unless someone wants it for that long.

Julie

That could be... but even if that's the way they go, it worries me that the permits are tied up for the entire time the individual requests. We left Glamis early this trip, as we have done on several other occasions. If I had a permit, it would have been wasted for at least one day and that's one day that some other duner could have used it.

Let's say we're planning on being in Glamis from Oct. 10-14. I have no idea if we're going to enter the AMA on October 10, 11, 12, 13 or 14, so I reserve the permit for all 5 days but use it only on the 13th. Someone else was there for October 10-11 and could not have a permit.

It's a logistic nightmare and I don't believe it was accidental. I firmly believe this system will, by the mere mechanics of it, ensure that statistically 525 people could not possibly utilize the AMA on any given day.

And, for the record, I absolutely disagree with instituting a program that appears doomed to failure from the beginning. What we don't need is one more cause of action for the anti access crowd to list in court.

Vicki

I'm not saying it's right or that it will work, just pointing out that the permits are no longer automatically for 7 days, but are only good for how long the permitee requests, which can be for 1-7 days. I also don't agree with the system or the AMA at all, but it is still better than all of them automatically being good for 7 days.
Julie

[quote]but it is still better than all of them automatically being good for 7 days.
Julie[/quote]

*shrug*

To each their own. Maybe I'm just tired, but I'm struggling with that silver lining

And I'm a rose-colored glasses kind of gal! hehehe

Vicki

I know that everybody wants to play in the closed area but what about the alcohol part of the ramp. Is it saying no alcohol in the dunes out side of camps.

And what about the curfews at comp and olds hills, what are they saying about that?

I am not a big reader of legalize so maybe some body can give us the readers digest version of this. Thanks :roll:

There are two new law enforcement "tools" included in this RAMP. One involves curfews/closures and the other is banning alcohol outside of designated camping areas.

Now, please understand that the RAMP is not saying these things will be put in place, only that they can be called into action if "they" feel they need it to keep the peace. I presume including these items in the RAMP will allow them to proceed with such restrictions without going through the public process of having a resolution passed by the Imperial County Board of Supervisors.

That said, I guess my rose-colored glasses have slipped again because the way I see it, now there's nothing to stop those "tools" from being used at will. Hey, it's in the management plan right?

Yes, those of us that commented on these "tools" in the drafting process will most definitely protest them now. Well, at least speaking for myself I know I will. I just have this crazy notion that CURRENT laws and regulations and alternative methods of control are available to accomplish the ultimate goal. Adding new restrictions and "tools" to the overburdened law enforcement staff will not make a difference, it will only set the system up for more failure.

Now... where did these "tools" come from? The pressure to ban alcohol has been coming from the top political offices for a long time. For them, it's all about P.R. and negative attention. The dunes are always in the paper, always creating a hornet's nest for them. Drunken parties, violent encounters, all traced back to the evils of alcohol (simplistic). Eliminate alcohol and you'll eliminate the problem right? Uh huh.

:rant:

Vicki

Tom-
AW #28 (under Health and Safety) reads:
Develop a tool to ban alcohol outside designated camping areas if needed to maintain law and order. If enacted, this potential ban would significantly reduce the level of alcohol related incidents within the ISDRA and aid in the overall enforcement of alcohol related violations.

So, in short terms, they are leaving that possibility open. If you want to see where they are considering "designated camping areas" see Map 5 that Chummin listed in his previous post. This was an area that many people and the ASA came out against in response to the DRAMP. The feeling is that instead of an area wide ban, enforce the laws already on the book and the problems would diminish. If you are someone who wrote the BLM in response to this issue in the DRAMP, you now have 30 days to comment again and express your dislike of this idea.

In general too Tom-you say "everyone" wants to play in the closed area but this "ban" would affect way more people than the AMA. Lots of duners have never been to the closed areas before and probably 5 years from now still won't have been. On the other hand, lots of duners do have a beer or two in the dunes and until they enforce the other laws, there is no reason for them to hit those duners with a new one.

Julie

Thanks Vicky and Julie for making this more clear. So these are tool that they can hit us with if for any reason they feel we are getting out of hand.

I thought prohibition was abolished over 70 years ago. and whats with marshall law at comp and olds, this crap sucks...

In the past 2 years attendance has dropped and the ravers have pretty much disappeared, so now that things are quieting down they want to kick more butt.

The dunes have calmed down so why don't they...

[quote]The dunes have calmed down so why don't they...[/quote]

BINGO!

This is what we, the people who are closest to this, must push for.

Tolerance. Understanding. Restraint. from the LEOs!

And we can't be looking the other way any more. We need to really pay close attention now.

Vicki

To much compromise happening period.

Its better than this or that. Its a step in the right direction.. etc.. etc.. VOR was/is right.

There were no steps when the closures happened. It just happened.
There were no steps with these curfews. It was announced and it happened.

They want to regulate 500+ vehicles in the closure areas. hmm. I have a feeling that you'd be lucky to see 500 a day out that far and that would be big weekends to begin with. That would make this entire deal nothing more than a scam to make money. Its a compromise that is a joke.

Banning alcohol or the TOOL to do it when the BLM sees fit.. Again another way to herd the cattle in to a certain area (our camps) and then the ASS-WIPES will be right in the middle of our camps. Pushing the ravers in to other locations is what they did last time. Comp -> Olds -> road to Olds -> Drags. it only moves the party. Now its gonna be in out camps AND the BLM will be glad to "fence" it all in one area. Then what???? They are afraid to enter the hills with all these peeps. They will then be afraid to enter the camp areas. What next.. Burning our trailers??

Again, enforcing the current laws 100% before these morons even get to the sand is the key here. A check point on 78 busting kids with alcohol and for DUI would help clean up 50% before it even starts.
HELLO -- Open your eyes here. A compromise is not the answer here. I would rather keep the closures then have to put with more of this crap and be herded around like cattle. I can do that at home in rush hour traffic on the way to work..

:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

Damn striate. I would rather the BLM keep the closed area and leave the rest of the dunes alone, after all that's what they want anyways so as to appease the greenes.

I think that the "curfews and no alcohol tools" are BS. I don't go on rides to get drunk but I do like having a ICDB when we stop to rest and to tell me I am braking the law doing it is just more BS.

I miss going to Comp at night and gather with the rest of the duners. Chummin was right when he said that 50% of the problem would not have existed if the BLM would have stopped the ravers and the under age drinker before they got to the dunes.

I see the LEO's actions as a don't punish the guilty but punish all attitude...

QUOTE

Damn striate. I would rather the BLM keep the closed area and leave the rest of the dunes alone, after all that's what they want anyways so as to appease the greenes.

I'm sure you're not serious, Mr. Dune, but just in case... this would be another form of compromise to me, and another wasted olive branch. Why, I've even heard people say they'll live with the large closure if they get the 2000-acre puddle back. THIS IS HOW IT WORKS... you get used to starving so then a scrap is like a feast.

That aside, does the BLM want it that way? No. Do they want to appease the anti-access groups? NO, or the RAMP with the closures in place would have been out many months ago. It was the stubborn refusal to give in to the anti-access pressure that kept this RAMP from being finalized a long time ago.

There are other people and other OHV groups who feel the end justifies the means.

Eliminate the hot spots and you eliminate the rowdies. Never mind that you step all over the recreation of hundreds of thousands of non-rowdies... the end justifies the means.

Eliminate alcohol use outside of camp. Never mind that this effects the good guys too, that the problem element won't care anyway and you've already got the "tools" to curb them... the end justifies the means.

What's next? Eliminate street-legal vehicles so the punks in trucks can't enter the dunes. Never mind that less than 1% of the problems are caused by punks in trucks and you'd be treading all over the enjoyment of the good guys... the end justifies the means.

Personally, I've never been an "ends justifies the means" kind of person, although as a human being I would respect anyone's right to make that choice.

But I won't fight for it.

Vicki

I humbly disagree with your statement that the BLM doesn't want it this way. The BLM have been systematicly trying to reduce the numbers of visitors to the ISDRA for years. Whether they "want' to do that or not they "are" doing that. This RAMP is just another example.
"permits", restrictions on vendors that make no sense, possible closure of Comp and Olds, alcohol restrictions... All methods to reduce the number of visitors to the ISDRA.
The RAMP says that the ISDRA can only support 85,000 people. Get used to that number because it is going to be enforced one of these days if we let this BOGUS document go through as it is.

Vor

I think Mr Dune was reflecting that this RAMP is no better then our current situation and that we need to continue the fight for a complete lift of the closures. That these are nothing more then comprimise and that is BS.

VOR.. you preach the word of truth.. I agree. This RAMP is a piece of crap with one thing in mind. A strong hold on the people who use the dunes AND surrounding areas. Its a way for the BLM to legally shut us out or make it so messearble for us we choose to leave.

I know of peeps WAITING for this ramp to place orders on new buggies because they are affraid to invest a bag o cash in something that will cause the deminish of the sport leaving all these 50K buggies worth crap. >:<

You are certainly entitled to your opinion(s). And I think we need to work together, not fight each other, but I'm afraid that I get very frustrated with statements like these. You imply that ALL of the BLM is out to get us. There are some, I'm sure, but I'm up to my neck in this fight and I know for a fact that not ALL are out to get us. I know, for a fact, that many in positions of influence are out to help us. Anyone who has sat in our trailer with the dunes manager knows what I'm talking about. And anyone who has attended a recent OHV leadership meeting can see that the paranoid old school approach quit working long ago, if it ever worked at all.

For YEARS many of the OHV leaders have done nothing but promote the suspicion that the BLM is out to get us. The "method" of fixing our problems has been to shout at, fight with, even resort to name-calling, with the agencies that manage our land. Shaking fists, making demands, stamping feet.

Where are we today? What have we accomplished? Something new is needed and whether or not you want to accept it, at least the BLM is willing to try.

My opinion that the desert branch of the BLM would like to keep as much of the Imperial Sand Dunes open to OHVs as possible comes from meetings, phone calls, emails, memos. Discussions that don't start with YOU DID THIS WRONG but rather "we have a better way."

Is the RAMP a piece of crap? In my opinion, yes it is. Will I fight it? YES. Hell, the good changes that came out are a result of the first round of fights.

The BLM has all kinds of people shouting at them to CLOSE US DOWN. We need to make sure they listen to those voices that say LET US PLAY.

So, we're down to this. You think they want us gone, I think they want to help us stay. Fine. Like I said, you're entitled to your own opinion.

I know what I'm going to do with mine. Meetings, letters, phone calls and comments.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

Vicki

hehehe

Okay, I put the pom-poms away. I'm not meaning to cheerlead for the BLM.

I just want people to take control here, not walk away in disgust and do nothing. If we do nothing we will lose. If we give in to "they're too strong for us" we will lose.

Even back in the day when we had BLM managers working against us we still fought. That's what finally turned the tides.

Believe what you want, but please, at least try to fix what's wrong.

Vicki