Clearly the trend is towards big cars with big engines, but there are still plenty of light 4 and 2 seat cars being built and plenty of older vw powered cars that could use an engine upgrade, so why aren't Honda 4cyl engines popular in the sand industry?

They are light, cheap, easy to find, reliable, the aftermarket street racing seen makes tons of performance parts for them, and just about every 17 year old pimple faced kid in high school can make them produce tons of hp.

So whats the deal?

I believe it is because these engines rotate backwards.

In other words, reverse rotation.

This is the reason.

reverse rotation,iron block, higher cg, lower hp than a 2.0t subaru. I saw the TSCO class one car run and it hauls it was racing against a a northstar powered car didnt see the northstar one come back. cant you run the ring and pinion backwards on the mendeolas?

Yes, Mendi does make a rev rotation R+P that from what I hear works pretty well. That is the main reason that you don't see them out there very often. They are cast blocks with alum heads, and can be made to run very high HP with in a small package. 1.6L DOHC's make 160-170hp right out of the box thru smog equipment. Throw a turbo system on that and it's running 300 or more with no issues. Or you could go to the bigger H22A or H23A (2.2 VTEC or 2.3 non VTEC) turbo'd and make some big ponies. I've always liked this option and if I build another smaller car, that is probably the way that I'll go.

from this post and your last one i read, it sounds like you have your mind made up on a honda, which there is nothing wrong with that, but ive seen a few poeple say to go with john with a subie and you always bring back up the honda. good luck on you choice though

Nothing wrong with a subi, but my choice would be a honda....just like em

OK, time for me to shed some light on Honda 4 cylinders for everyone.

1. ALL Honda 4 cylinders engineered after the S2000 was introduced spin the normal direction, clockwise. That means 1.7 liter Civics, various 2.0s in different bodies and at different power levels, and several versions of a 2.4 liter.
These all spin clockwise.

2. All Honda 4 cylinders (since at least the late 80s) use aluminum blocks and aluminum heads.
The 2.4 liter motors I am building weigh in at around 285 lbs, complete (naturally aspirated).

3. The most current and (IMO) best Honda 4 cylinders are the "K" series. K20 & K24. There are tons of these engines on the street making 350 HP at the tires, naturally aspirated. 500 - 700 HP turbocharged K24s can be built blindfolded and there are some near and beyond the 1000 HP mark.
It is not uncommon for Hondas to reach the 7HP/Cubic Inch range of performance.

Hope this clears a few things up!

I would think lack of torque is what makes these guys not as popular.
Sometimes the motto is true (THERE IS NO REPLACMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT).
I bet a nice S2000 ripping up the dunes sure would be fun, I also don't know how much a mendi would like being spun at 8000 rpm?

Rotaries did all the time, 8K isn't THAT high...it is spinning for sure. S2K1, thanks for the info. The old H22 that I had looked like a cast block, but I honestly never looked into it to see for sure.

K24?? What is that out of?? That's something work looking into.

the most used are the DOHC b16a vtec 1.6 160hp reverse rotation iron block that came out of the 99-00 civic SI is wich is more high performance than the next generation engines stock. The DOHC vtec b18a 1.8 iron block GSR engine is about 180hp and it comes in the 94'and up integra GSR. there are hybrids and combinations of honda CRV suv engines which can put out power with aftermarket parts but a subaru can do the same with a lighter block, lower cg, and cheaper. What does it cost to do a 200hp honda compared to a 200hp subaru. Subarus and ls1 used in sandrails are not by accident they are the best engine choice for a custom peformance application where power to weight engine and center of gravity is KEY. Honda engines are great and rev and feel like alot more power than rated but to spend alot of money on an race/play type engine i think the subaru does the job better. but for a very low budget you can get an engine and cpu at a wrecking yard cheaper than a built VW and is a far supiorior in power and reliability but weight penalty. if you want to be different and build a 800hp non reliable full race honda go for it, it is an awesome concept but having more reliable big twin turo ls1s and 1200hp bmw v12s as competion youll be behind in the game. honda vtec system is what enables these engines to make big power high in the RPM in stock form and do not make great under the curve power. the vtev engages a about 5500rpm giving it a boost in hp wich compared to a turbo engine is alot of lag. ATVracing uses a honda engine in the taz car mini rail http://www.atvracing1.com/home.htm http://atvracing1.com/tazcar.htm 10k for a b16a buggy application.

The 1.7l Civic motor is still a D motor and rotates CCW. ALL H22s and H23s had aluminum blocks.. The last iron block was used in the '89 Accord 2.0. The B16, B18 (V-tec and non), and B20 ALL have aluminum blocks aswell. The B16 was first used in the Del Sol in '94 IIRC.

Motorsports601,
This board is great for sharing information but you should recheck some of your facts.
First, the B16, D16, B17, B18, B20, H22, & H23 all use aluminum blocks! (these all spin the wrong way though) Honda hasn't used cast iron blocks for a long time!
Nobody is on here saying that Subarus aren't good engines or anything like that. Rather, just exposing the fact that there are some alternatives out there, in this case, Hondas.
As for your 200HP, the K24A4s I sell make low 190s at the flywheel, naturally aspirated. Complete ready to run packages with clutch, adapter, fuel pump, filters, wire harness, ecu, relays, fuse box, exhaust, K&N with Outerwear, etc start at $5k retail.
As for VTEC, it is great. Small cam profile for good driveability, part throttle fuel consumption, idle quality, etc with the more aggressive profile for better power in the upper RPM ranges. You get a wider range of performance out of one engine due to variable cam profiles. And, the K series take it one step further with i-VTEC, or intelligent VTEC. The K engines also use variable cam phasing, the intake cam can be advanced or retarded continuously while running up to 50 degrees, plus the small lobe / large lobe VTEC! This is great stuff!
HV - K24s come in the Honda Accord, Element, CRV, and Acura TSX. Plus the new Acura RDX has a variable vane turbocharged K23 that makes 240 HP @ 6000 rpm and 260 lb-ft of TQ @ 4500 rpm.
I think Hondas and Subarus are great engines. Choose which ever is most desireable to you!

OK, I stand corrected on the D series engine rotation and the D16 did have an iron block.

OK Honda Guru's

Whats the skinny on the new factory turbocharged Honda is advertising?

none of the B series had iron blocks. i have no idea where this rumor started but its not true.

n/a powered honda's dont seem to have that bottom end power we all like. put the right turbo/supercharger and that solves the problem. plus they dont sound mean imo.

It comes in the new Acura RDX. 240 HP & 260 TQ from 2.3 liters. It is a K series 4 cylinder, and has some variation from the K24s. I believe it also has a new, unique bell housing pattern. It uses a variable vane turbo and is drive by wire. I'm sure Hondata is working on making the ecu tuneable. The header is cast aluminum, and water flows into the casting throught the exhaust flange, from the side of the engine next to the exhaust ports. I for one am anxious to get my hands on one.

It seems that if you want 400 + crank hp you are going to spend $10k plus no matter what kind of engine you choose, and if that is the case it is hard to go any direction but tried and true chevrolet LS1/2/6 for the most bang for the buck/reliability. Torqe comes in real handy in the dunes too, oh did I mention pump gas. my .02.

Nope. It was first used in a DA chassis. 90-93 Integras in Japan... those are first generation B16A1's.

B16A3 is from the Del Sol and considered Gold to some.

B16A2 came from 99-00 Civic Si and is considered the second generation B16.

B17A is from 92-93 Integra GSR.

B18C1 is from 94-00 GSR.

B18C5 is from 97-00 Type R.

B18C is from JDM GSR.

Honda's make a mean growl, but it's on the intake side?
Put a turbo on, and it dissapears, When I was into imports there where only a couple tuners (Probably tons now) pulling 400 or so horse NA and boy they sounded mean.

and in the 90-91crx and civic

You mean 400 bhp?
My last street civic made 230 na to the wheels and that was about as high as we could get them before they turned into time bombs. I've seen race a motor dyno at 320 whp on alky that was a 2.4 b series. I built a 320 whp pump gas turbo b18c that was reliable and cost was about 5k. I always thought a motor like that would be fun in a buggy. I got out of that scene 3-4 years ago as the k's came out i'll bet there some real good hp in those. Plus they spin right

they would be great in a lightweight buggy.

400hp NA, no. might as well name it temporarly running on the wing.

230 is great out of a NA 4 cylinder honda. that's getting it pretty good.

The real reason is because most duners are smart enough to realize that a sticker really doesn't add 100hp.

Any real street racer knows that the sticker kit if only really worth 5hp...

C'mon steve, get with the program

TOMFISH has a good point. How much$$ does it take to make it what we need. and hp is good but what about torque. My 3.2 v-6 is short on torque

I guess you've never heard a built Honda motor with headwork and cams. Bummer for you.

MOST Duners are more uneducated than your average street racer.

But it was first used in the XSi Integra.

Calculated Flywheel Horsepower

If any one wants to give it a try....... Ill sell my B 18 turbo as a complete motor package (turn key ready) $3500. Radiator and all.





Sorry for the hijack.

90-93 integras used the B18 non vtec head I had one.

Yeah, I have one sitting in the garage... 180whp with bolt ons. We were mainly talking Vtec here because it's hard enough to convince some of these guys that Vtec motors can put out power, let alone non Vtec...

we were talking jdm also

that's sweet got any more pics
I'm not in the market you just don't see to many b's in rails

the b18a1 and b18a2 are from the 90-93 integra and the b17a is from the 92-93 GSR and are very rare. both are USDM. doesnt matter though, none of them make as much sense to me as a subaru.

Or a K series Honda 4 cylinder as far as making sense for a sand / off-road car.

well i mean more about the fact that they are turbo and therefore offer more torque. torque is what you want in the dunes and the fact that a subaru is an upossed 4 makes them even more favorable because you have less weight hanging further over the rear axle. they are alluminum and designed for boost and have much better luck with closing the decks of the cylinders than the B series hondas have had.

I dont no as much about these motors as you guys but I personally ran a B-18 turbo @8lbs of boost and it put down 275 to the wheels at Mechtech. but the motor was reverse rotation and I ran it as a mid engine with an 091, just ran th tranny backwards and I think I kept mcdowell in business. wouldnt us that motor again, infact im putting an sti subi in an AG im getting built. I think the guy I sold my car to i selling the motor in the classifieds section

look up this thread a bit. That motor is in this topic.

I OWN TWO TAZCARS BY ATV RACING IN PHOENIX , BOTH WITH HONDA V-TECH MOTORS. ONE IS STOCK WITH TYPE R CAMS 190 HP, THE OTHER IS BUILT 300 HP. THEY ARE A GREAT MOTOR THEY JUST RUN ALL DAY LONG .

350 H.P. at the tires naturally aspirated, seems like a stretch, If thats so why are the 3.5 Honda's only putting out 260 at the motor, not tires?

It is not a stretch, but these are highly modified engines. The 3.5 Hondas you're comparing them to are stock engines. That's where the difference is. A 3.5 can be built to make much more power, but everything is custom made. For the 4 cylinders, you can call and order almost anything from countless places.
Also, the built 4 cylinders are turning 9000+ rpm.

So who is the v-6 honda h.p. guys, I want more.

Gary @ C&G performance does them.

Sorry for the hijack.
[/quote]
that's sweet got any more pics
I'm not in the market you just don't see to many b's in rails
[/quote]

Sure ya do:




Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTSWyugE2so

[quote name='kylewest1320' date='Jul 6 2007, 08:36 AM' post='2358050']
Sorry for the hijack.
[/quote]
that's sweet got any more pics
I'm not in the market you just don't see to many b's in rails
[/quote]

Sure ya do:




Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTSWyugE2so
[/quote]

Is that a J&J or a Mazzone?
I used to have a 117" aluminum J&J that I was putting a turbo'd H23 engine in. Then long travels sprouted up and I bought a Suspensions Unlimited. Thanks for the pics, I still like those cars like yours.

Something that nobody has touched on is engine harmonics and block/crankshaft design.


The smoothest running engines are flat 12s, flat 6s and V12s. The roughest running engine is a straight 4. Most 4 cylinder engines have dual balance shafts to cut down on these engine vibrations. This adds extra weight and complexity to the engine. The forces of 2 pistons trying to bend the crank against the other 2 pistons dictates that the crank and bearing saddles end up beefier than other engine designs.

A flat 4, like a VW, Porsche or Subaru, has opposed pistons that drive against each other so the case and crank can be much lighter yet still be strong enough to produce 600+ hp. Between the lower CoG, light weight, low cost and the potentially high power, the Subaru engine is a very attractive package.