Is this for real?

Looks real.

Do they think we are just idiots?
Did we not just basically establish that the UA's are called on a specific TIME and not due to any particular ACTION?

Was the TRT not listening at all? Or is this one of those... "Well, it'll serve the public to spew this nonsense so we'll stand behind it."

They're talking. It doesn't mean they're listening, obviously.



From the tone of this, it looks like they are the mouthpiece for the BLM or ICSO.

No.



Apparently the conclusion that was reached in this forum didn't reach the masses



Yea, WE are listening. I am the TRT PSSC representative for GD.com... PM, EMAIL, or VOICE ( ) your concerns here and I'll address them at the next TRT PSSC meeting just like I did at the last one. This is an info piece... It was meant to enlighten the masses on what a UA is and what the legalities of it are. Check sout some of those polls and ask around... there are a LOT of people that do not/did not know what a UA is and what they are supposed to do when a UA is declared... that puts them in a bad position if they are at the hill when one is called.

This piece about UAs... not about tactics and logistics.... like calling a UA because it's the end of the shift.

What is your main beef with it Is there anything misleading or untrue? Do you think that it will not inform whoever reads it about the legalities of a UA?




Care to eloborate? What is obvious and how is it obvious Steve?



Isn't that part of their function? The go-between for the duners and the BLM


Trust me fellas... I am not happy about the perception of unwarranted UAs being declared by the clock either. That said, with the purpose of this piece in mind... what is the problem with it?

The problem lies with what is supposed to happen and what does happen as perceived by those who have been caught in the trap.

Trap?

Are you talking about the write up or or you talking about what typically happens when a UA is declared?

Both. Or the difference between the two.

And yes, I say trap because once the events are put in motion you are in a trap.

Once the UA has been declared you are in a trap with only one way out;The same way everyone else is going. Don't move quick enough and you get the full fury of the cops taken out on you. Too bad if your vehicle breaks down, or the 10,000 people in front of you aren't moving quick enough.

And don't try to deny that the cops that shoot the pepper balls don't get off on plastering somebody with that s***. Once the events take off, you are no longer a human in their eyes, just a target.

It's easy for me though. I avoid the situation altogether.

So what's your point or should I say your "BEEF"?
You avoid the situation, so it doesn't effect you, you just speculating, stirring the pot or what?

I have been present for more that just a couple of these sweeps...........and no, I didn't feel trapped or threatened.

The Rangers asked us to leave and we did, ASAP, no problem. If you don't care to yield to authority, expect a bump on your noggin, a knowledge bump!

Both times I watched them clear the hill they lined up for over a half hour with their red and blue light flashing while the helicoptor announced the closure and told everyone to leave.

If thats not enough warning, how much should they give?

Remind me not to go on a ride with Jet. He only takes Olds Road in and out. hahahahhaaa. Flatbiller!

Never had an issue with officers. I've always been asked politely to leave, and I do as I am told, just like I am supposed to and they smile and wave, I do the same back. Funny how it works that way isn't it?

No beef and I am not stirring the pot. So I guess speculating would be the answer there captain. I don't know what I was thinking when I spoke up and it didn't fit into your outlook on the world.

You know that if you don't know what you are thinking when you speak.....................it's probably best not to speak at all.................

That knife cuts both ways tough guy.

Have you even read the whole thread here?

My comments were based in part on this.

Well said Ez

Man the gestasapo is strong on this site. Careful what you think, or say.




For a second I thought I put in the wrong web site.

More and more, the url doesn't matter.

It's obvious that the TRT PSSC is talking TO us about what the BLM or ICSO wants us to be told, not the other way around. It should be a 2 way street. 2 way communications. Meaning that the duners who are affected by this should have their message carried to the BLM and ICSO. I'm sure you've already figured out that most of the law abiding people who are sitting at the hill don't appreciate getting rousted because a few people are getting rowdy.

That would be like the cops stopping a football game and throwing everyone out of the stadium because a few fans got out of control. If that was the case, the Raiders wouldn't have finished a game all season.



So if the cops at a crowded football game can control the few troublemakers in the crowded confines of a stadium, it must not be too hard to handle a few flatbillers in open terrain, especially with vehicles and pepperballs.

Now if I saw a post by someone on the TRT PSSC that indicated that our message is getting to the ICSO, then it would appear as if the TRT PSSC was an effective method of 2 way communication, rather than a one way mouthpiece.

That characterization may not be correct, but with the absence of any info to the contrary, that is certainly what it looks like.

I hate it when you make perfect statements. This is so true its painful. The law enforcement doesn't want to handle a few trouble makers, nor do the gorups calling the shots out there. They dont want any hill to be a party. Period!


Tactics being done please the few folks(and I mean few) at the A$A!

so why not video a few of these hill closures and take them to the meetings and show them and ask for an explanation??

JET, stop asking questions, you will distrupt the force...........

I would guess that someone at the meeting would state that the lawbreaking was not being shown on the video and thus it's an inaccurate portrayal or something similar.


The problem is, it's impossible to armchair QB this stuff on a Monday because all they have to say is "we felt it was an unsafe situation" and that's all the excuse they need. You can't prove it was or wasn't safe on Monday.

And if you're there at the time and they light the place up, that's the wrong time to be asking for clarification, you're just asking for a pepperball or maglight up side the head.

All I'm asking for, and it's a simle request, really, is that those who make the decisions concerning Glamis and law enforcement in Glamis do so with thoughtfulness, resourcefulness, intelligence. I don't think knee jerk reactions do anyone any good.

I'd love to see positive posts from members on a Monday stating that they saw the LEOs in action and they did a superb job of hauling off troublemakers while leaving families with children alone. I don't think it's asking too much at all, and it would go a long ways toward giving a more positive image to the ICSO.

ah but what if the videos showes the hill closures all happening at the same time or close to the same time???

That is what I hope all of us want???

As bad as it sometimes get at Charger/Raider games...and I have been to lots of them...

I haven't seen anyone with a shovel trying to dig a trench, haven't seen anyone run or drive through a burning whatever because they were trapped...and so on...

Oranges and apples...

NO, they are TELLING us what they want. I dont care what some members say, once they sweep the hill the LEO's are GONE. Evidenced by my ability to wait for a few minutes then go back down to the berm and resuming the fire sitting. This tells me its end of shift work(11:00 ish generally) Simple as that.

Which brings up a good point. Isnt it unsafe to leave fire unattended? thre are lots of little fires burning after the sweep. Try leaving a fire unattended at camp and see how fast they will "light" your azz up. (as they should..)

As far as taking control of the crowd, they have at least 50 cops out there (probably many more including those riding in vehicles) are you telling me all those cops who participate in the sweep cant apprehend a few troublemakers? Of course they can, but its just easier to kick everyone out, innocent or not...Less paperwork to do i guess.

RoostKing...

SOCAL;
In reading the Post and being involved in other Posts regarding this matter, it appears to me they have heard the complaints and addressed them. Maybe you are not comprehending that because it is not the result you want.
The way I read it: The protest to this has been heard. They are sorry for the inconvenience to the majority, but the actions of the few will continue to create the Unlawful Assembly Action.

I agree 110% Steve no one deserves to be shot at or assaulted beacuse of the actions of a few.

Yes, it is a 2-way street and the TRT PSSC is talking TO the BLM & ICSO during these meetings. The comments and concerns that have been mentioned on this board, the ASA board, in emails and other means, to the TRT PSSC members are being discussed.

The reason we are having discussions about the UAs with the BLM & ICSO in the first place is because the TRT PSSC asked; why they were being declared; to explain the reasoning; and how they were handled. The reason we asked is because that is what the dune users were asking. The UA article is the first result of these discussions.

The BLM & ICSO have been told by us that it appears the UAs are timed. We have told the BLM & ICSO that law abiding duners are tired of being punished for the actions of a limited number of wrong doers. We have asked the BLM & ICSO to stop these individual issues sooner before the hill is closed.

Hozay has made Lord knows how many Polls in this forum to get input that he can take to the table for discussion. I will take input from the TRT Feedback Form, and any TRT PSSC member will take input by any other means.

I'm hoping that people can see that we are actually trying to get the message of the law abiding duners to the BLM & ICSO. I also hope that people understand that we are not doing this because we have nothing better to do or doing so to be a mouthpiece for the BLM & ICSO.

One other thing that has not been mentioned yet. Since these discussions are now happening under the TRT Public Safety Sub-Committee, and not the Comp Hill Solutions Team, future meetings will be open to the public to attend and anyone can provide their own comments directly. The date and time of the next meeting has not been decided. It will be announced at ISDRATRT.org, on this board, and the ASA board.

Thank you!

You're Welcome!

I'm just surprised that more people aren't pissed that there being used for BLM & ICSO target practice.

I'm not...............surprised.

Most of those who find themselves in that situation are of the "Hold my beer and watch this, those cops aren't telling me shait" attitude.

Some folks only learn throught the school of hard knocks, knocks on the top of their head, that is.
When the BLM & ICSO say it's time to go.............IT'S TIME TO GO!

Appears timed? Please, I set my clocks to their sweeps.

WELL SAID

Still doesnt answer the question as too why the actions of a few cant be stopped before it gets to the point of closing Olds?

RoostKing...

Maybe, but I didn't think anyone was suggesting disobeying the orders to clear the hills.

People are, however, questioning the tactics used.

And the need for the sweeps in the first place.

Not everyone is content to just accept an abuse of authority simply based on the fact that it is being abused by the authorities.

Might does not equal right.

Vicki

Precisely!


What if they decide it's time to start sweeping thru campsites because it's just too crowded? Based on this precedent, they don't have to justify it. "Because we said so" has now become the accepted justification.


At that point, according to some people, it's time to just obey and flee!

What about the poor guy that gets his truck stuck in the sand and can't leave or the guy that can't get his quad started, do they really deserve this kind of treatment which has happened to one of are owe in camp.

With 50 officers at the hill I would think they could just go after the asshats that start the crap and let everyone else injoy the trip to the hill.

Sorry but abuse of authority is something I can't condone. If you don't address the problem directly (aka Asshats) then the problem will never go away, they should be made to pay for there actions by being arrested...

I thought this thread was about the UA info piece that went out

We ALL have issues about UAs... what issues do YOU have with the article quoted in the first post

The problem that I have with the original post, which is essentially a press release from the ICSO, is that it threatens further curfews like at Comp if the "unlawful activities" escalate.


It then further explains that we must be supportive of the law enforcement efforts. What's bothering me is that nowhere in there do they acknoweldge any desire or need to separate the law abiding duners from the felony committing riff raff.


Doesn't it bother you in the least to be characterized as a felon, merely because of your presence in a certain location at a certain time? Again, this isn't Communist Russia or Communist China, and I resent the actions of those who want to act like it is.

I'd like to see a press release detailing how they are going to target CRIMINALS, rather than treat everyone like one.

^^^^^^^ good post steve

It isn't a bit on law enforcement at the dunes... tactical procedures... resources or prioritization... it's a piece on UAs. I too want to see the seperation you mention and I too see most of the same problems yall do... IF they would targeet the riff-raff then there's a good chance that less/no UAs would need to be decalred... BUT!!!!!.... In the event that a UA is EVER declared... for whatever reason... at whatever time... this information is intended to inform people about what a UA is and what they should do if one is declared... that's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Again, look at how many people didn't even know what a UA was... how many folks DID NOT KNOW that when a UA was declared that thewy were required by law to leave the scene... do you not think this is uselfull information? ...andd AGAIn... is any of it untrue or misleading?

Make sure you read the fine print.


On-Topic

Many here have posted (in other posts on same subject) that they have done A.
As for B., be forewarned. If you breakdown, attach a tow rope and start flagging for a ride out of the area. If you see someone brokendown, offer to tow them out of the area.

After reading the entire penal code section in which this is included it sure seems clear that all duners are painted with the same broad stroke.

Everyone is requested to leave the area after a "UA" is declared, good guys and bad guys alike.

How many times do they completely clear a public beach on 4th of July when two drunk guys get into a fight?

Vicki

I totally understand where you arre coming from... once a UA is declared everyone is ordered to leave.. regardless if you were digging trenches or if you were roasting mashmallows.

Hopefully that piece informs people enough to realize this ...and that once a UA is declared they need to leave ASAP.

This piece wasn't intended to stop UAs from happening... it was to inform the public about the leaglities of a UA ....and that it's not just a "recomendation" to leave the area... so that "Joe Duner" knows that if the LE is lining up then it's probably a good time to pull chocks and haul outa the valley... to inform them that the LE are not lining up to clear out the troublemakers.. they are clearing out everyone... and IMO this info could potentially keep someone frrom getting harrassed or pepperballed for not following an order they didn't know about

The real work lies ahead... and that's getting to the bottom of a UA before it is even declared (whic this piece has nothing to do with). I don't want UAs declared. I don't want to be kicked out of the hill. I don't want any area at the ISDRA to be cleared for "Crimes against the Public Peace".

They'll never get to the bottom of it.

Declaring UAs is a handy little tool, one they back-doored to get the "right" to use in the first place. Once it was in place is started to spread and will continue to spread.

What the duning community wants is unimportant... it is not a consideration since the only thing that matters to the management staff is what makes their jobs go better. Want an example? Look at the take-over of Osborne Overlook in spite of public outcry and indeed, promises that it won't be happening.

On a little side note about whether the UAs take place on schedule or not... anyone else remember the "surprise" registration inspections they use to have each and every cleanup weekend?

The "schedule" of those was denied too.

Vicki