There is a major discussion on the ASA Board about the cost of the new season pass and it potential downfalls/sort comings...
Just wanted to see what the general opinion was over here at GD.com
Hopefully we can come up with a good solution to what is about to happen!
http://www.americansandassociation.org/php...pic.php?t=11879
Full Version: New season pass price, what do you think?
Not very happy about it, but I will be forced to buy 1 to avoid the penalty for not having 1.
It think this is terrible! Yes Frank and I will pay if we have to, but I'm not happy about it. I think we should try and do something, get a petition going anything. I expect the cost to go up but over 4 times as much! This is really going to hurt a lot of people, and the trouble makers probably don't pay for a pass anyway >:< >:<
| QUOTE |
| Not very happy about it, but I will be forced to buy 1 to avoid the penalty for not having 1. |
DUNERS is working very closely with the BLM and the contractor on the business plan project.
The agencies involved really want and absolutely NEED our input.
As hard as it is for some to believe, there is a different climate in the BLM right now... one we need to take full advantage of.
We do have choices and we can lead them in the direction we want them to go.
But we have to work at it and we have to keep an eye on them.
Anyone who has come to a DUNERS meeting has heard this... sorry for the repeat... but it describes our role at Glamis pretty closely.
If you owned a house in Hawaii and lived in California, you'd have a property manager taking care of your property. You'd be keeping an eye on that property manager. If you started hearing rumors that he had stopped charging rent for the place, the backyard had burned up, the carpet was destroyed, the rent money was invested in horse racing, you'd never allow it. You'd either fire him or you'd find a way to make damn sure he was doing what you want him to do.
The BLM is our property manager. We can't fire them but we sure as hell can keep closer tabs on them.
The choice is simple. Leave Glamis to them and their imaginations or take control.
I choose control.
Vicki
TOTAL BULL $HIT!!! 100% of it also..
NOTHING in the RAMP justifies this increase. Many families buy 2 passes cause often they take 2 cars because of timing.
Whats a daily pass gonna cost now? With in increase like this I expect the following:
NOTHING in the RAMP justifies this increase. Many families buy 2 passes cause often they take 2 cars because of timing.
Whats a daily pass gonna cost now? With in increase like this I expect the following:
- BLM to have a full staff YEAR ROUND with daily and nightly patrols to prevent the deaths that happen every summer.
To have and provide Heli support by leasing or owning their own helicoptor and keeping it at the Gecko station.
To post two rangers in every designated camping area every weekend during the season.
To ACTUALLY HAVE a DUI check point on 78 coming to and leaving Glamis (hmm what an idea!!!!)
To Create 3 more ranger stations.
To provide drinking fountians in random places through out the dunes.
To Provide FIRE RINGS
To Provide FULL HOOKUPS in the washes
To Provide Covered spaced along Gecko.
To provide a FAA certified landing strip along wash road.
To provide Hooter Girls entertainment every sat afternoon at the drags.
To Offer free Contintal Breakfasts consisting of cerial, hot coffee, fruits, and muffins. Beagles can replace the muffins.
To provide an RV washdown in Cement flats.
To Build a mini mall catering to the sport of off roading. 1 shop can sell hiking shoes to Patterson. Probably go out of business anyways..
Im sure Ill think of more..
Well let me just bend on over... >:< What a bunch of *ing bull*. !! I expected an increase but this is outrageous!!!!!
Question for all of you. I know this has happened more than once in my group and I have spoken to many others that are aware of it also and I doubt anyone here has "forgotten" to buy their pass....
On two of our trips last season, we were aware of a couple of people camped with us that didn't buy their pass...using the excuse that they forgot or something! What level of compliance do you feel is being realized with the current Demo fee program?
If we look at the amount of money collected, I can't calculate any way, shape or form that it accounts for even 50% of the visitors! We are in the process of collecting the actual data of how many of each kind of pass was purchased for last season.
Again I fear that what we have is a failure to enforce the regulation. My next fear is that if the fee is raised to the level in the business plan that the compliance will be even less!
On two of our trips last season, we were aware of a couple of people camped with us that didn't buy their pass...using the excuse that they forgot or something! What level of compliance do you feel is being realized with the current Demo fee program?
If we look at the amount of money collected, I can't calculate any way, shape or form that it accounts for even 50% of the visitors! We are in the process of collecting the actual data of how many of each kind of pass was purchased for last season.
Again I fear that what we have is a failure to enforce the regulation. My next fear is that if the fee is raised to the level in the business plan that the compliance will be even less!
I agree with Chummin except for one thing...
What if I dont like Beagles and would rather have Poodles instead.
In all seriousness I would like to see more of a check point on 78 on the way in. Someone to check for DUIs and also to check on some of the crap that comes into the dunes. I see Pallets and couches and stuff to burn come through the so called checkpoint on the big weekends. They need to have that stuff taken off the trailers when its seen at the checkpoint. They should also check for underaged kids comin in with "mass quantities" of alcohol. I alos think another ranger station or two would be greatly beneficial to us duners but to the LEOS too.
| QUOTE |
| Beagles can replace the muffins |
What if I dont like Beagles and would rather have Poodles instead.
In all seriousness I would like to see more of a check point on 78 on the way in. Someone to check for DUIs and also to check on some of the crap that comes into the dunes. I see Pallets and couches and stuff to burn come through the so called checkpoint on the big weekends. They need to have that stuff taken off the trailers when its seen at the checkpoint. They should also check for underaged kids comin in with "mass quantities" of alcohol. I alos think another ranger station or two would be greatly beneficial to us duners but to the LEOS too.
Gerg, I totally agree with what your saying. I think yes it will go down (less people buying passes)
It's just a total mismanagment on the BLM's part and now we will pay! :x
It's just a total mismanagment on the BLM's part and now we will pay! :x
Greg, I totally agree with what your saying. I think yes it will go down (less people buying passes)
It's just a total mis management on the BLM's part and now we will pay! :x
It's just a total mis management on the BLM's part and now we will pay! :x
I think it's bull shit. The way these guys mismanage money is a disgrace. And you guys that think its ok to get robbed then i hope you don't mined next time when it 200 bucks for a yearly pass and goes up from there. All we ask for was a little more enforcement and they think we want a full time police force. all we wanted was for the rottes to leave, and for the most part they have. And for that we get hosed until we ourselfs are forced out. >:< >:<
I guess this is one way for the greenies to win... :X:
I guess this is one way for the greenies to win... :X:
| QUOTE |
| Ill take 2 please.
If the money will help out the dunes, enforcement or even keep the lawless out im in! $130.00 or so? Comon quit crying. |
I agree and will pay whatever the cost is! I do have one main concern, what will keep the money from being misappropriated as it has been in the past? Plus I really don't like the idea of paying my Demo fee if there is still a large percentage of users that don't comply!
Like Obsessed said in the other post, I would pay $500.00 (or more) if I knew that money was being used properly and being collected from everyone!
| QUOTE |
| I do have one main concern, what will keep the money from being misappropriated as it has been in the past |
WE have to do the policing. No one else will do it for us.
I'm going to repeat something I said on the ASA message board...
a) I don't like it.
I don't want it.
c) I can't afford it.
d) All of the above.
I'll take "d" please.
Okay, so now what? Let me tell you a horror story (some of you may know this).
Last year during the round-and-round of grant proposals, the OHMVR came back with some pretty strong conditions. Sure, they'd support Glamis but first, everyone (the OHV leaders and BLM) must agree to certain things. Bad things. One small for instance was closing down "over used" areas after heavy use periods. I thought immediately of sand highway after Thanksgiving or Olds after New Years. How about the washes? Who decides? It was very broad and oh yeah, the condition didn't say how long the over-used would be closed down... just that it would be.
There were others, but you get the idea.
The money was there and the OHMVR was willing to give it to us. Oh boy, were they willing to give it to us.
It was at that moment that people started wondering just how badly do we need that money? What good will it do when we can't ride there anyway? And so some started thinking about how to get around needing OHMVR money, at least until we can get more balanced representation on the committee.
And so the plan to make Glamis self-supporting began.
For me? I don't want to ever go back to hearing that sure we can have the money we need to keep operating, but first you have to change Glamis to the way we, the anti-access leaders of this Commission, want it to be.
I guess everyone needs to make their own decision.
What are you willing to give up? How much of Glamis are you willing to sell? Who wants to go back to giving in to the unreasonable conditions set by the OHMVR?
And if you're not willing, then what are the alternatives? And please, no more "I want it the way it was 30 years ago." NOTHING is the way it was 30 years ago and never will be. Wishing will not make it so.
Glamis needs money to stay open for our use. That's the fact.
Now -- where will that money come from?
Vicki
And before anyone says "fine, let them keep the money, we don't need anything at Glamis", here's another post from the other board:
Okay, let's for a minute go along with fewer/no services.
No EMTs.
No bathrooms.
No ranger station.
No kiosks.
No LEOs.
Alrighty then.
Wait... that would also mean no vendors. Oh well, okay, no vendors.
But wait... that would also mean no rangers. No rangers = no monitoring.
Nearly 3 years ago, lack of monitoring gave a foothold to a lawsuit that closed down 49,000 acres.
Now that is some scary shiat.
Vicki
Okay, let's for a minute go along with fewer/no services.
No EMTs.
No bathrooms.
No ranger station.
No kiosks.
No LEOs.
Alrighty then.
Wait... that would also mean no vendors. Oh well, okay, no vendors.
But wait... that would also mean no rangers. No rangers = no monitoring.
Nearly 3 years ago, lack of monitoring gave a foothold to a lawsuit that closed down 49,000 acres.
Now that is some scary shiat.
Vicki
Vicki,
I totally respect your opinion and energy on this subject, but the bottom line to me is how will "we" (duners) police the BLM?
It sounds like your telling me that if "we" disagree with something they are doing and let them know about it "they" (BLM) will change it?
I don't ever see this happening with out major lawsuits. Which cost big $ so once again "we" pay more...
If you tell your "boss' you don't like the way he/she manages and they need to change, what will they say to you??? Deal with it or find a new job! Why won't the BLM say the same thing? Deal with it or stop coming to the ISDRA. :rant:
I totally respect your opinion and energy on this subject, but the bottom line to me is how will "we" (duners) police the BLM?
It sounds like your telling me that if "we" disagree with something they are doing and let them know about it "they" (BLM) will change it?
I don't ever see this happening with out major lawsuits. Which cost big $ so once again "we" pay more...
If you tell your "boss' you don't like the way he/she manages and they need to change, what will they say to you??? Deal with it or find a new job! Why won't the BLM say the same thing? Deal with it or stop coming to the ISDRA. :rant:
| QUOTE |
| If you tell your \"boss' you don't like the way he/she manages and they need to change, what will they say to you??? Deal with it or find a new job! Why won't the BLM say the same thing? Deal with it or stop coming to the ISDRA. :rant: |
Ah, but you've mixed up the relationship
They're not the boss of us, we're the boss of them! And it's damn hard work reminding them of that. It is, in fact, a constant battle.
But the alternative is to give in and let them run things the way they have been and geez, we just can't do that.
Yes, they've been listening to us. I've said it before and I'll say it again... I believe that if we had this climate when the RAMP was released, we'd have a totally different management plan to deal with.
I don't want to sound over-confident and I don't want to give anyone the impression this is a cake-walk. It is hard work and it takes diligence and attending meetings and knowing when to kick someone's ass or when to go cry to their superior.
But man, I sure think the effort will be worth it.
I will say something here and now. I DON'T FIGHT LOSING BATTLES. Never have. I'm smart enough to know when the light at the end of the tunnel is a big ol' train that's about to run me down.
And I'm always listening for it and checking the tracks. And I'll be the first to tell you when there's no hope and nothing we can change. Not only do I have absolutely nothing to gain by ignoring the train... it's not in my nature to convince anyone of false hope.
One more thing... just because DUNERS feels our best hope is to pull the reins in on the property managers doesn't mean we compromise our beliefs for the sake of the relationship.
At no point are we ever on anyone's side but Mother G's.
Vicki
Where did the money come from last year when the fees were 30?
AND they didn't do anything but close areas then. I've said it a million times and I continue to say it. They DONT ENFORCE the existing laws with last years money. Now they need 4 times more money to do just that??
I guess my tiny brain just cannot figure out what all this extra money is for and where last years money came from. :?
FUTURE GLAMIS NEWS HEADLINES.....
Aug 2004 - BLM ramps up full time officers. Now employing 3000 peace officers for the ISDRA Glamis Areas.
Sept 2004 - BLM purchases Light Attack Vehicles formerly retired from the US Marine Corps.
Oct 2004 - BLM signs contracts with Colt Arms for assault rifles and pistols to handle the riots of the coming season.
BLM signs contracts with Yamaha purchasing 1000 04 YFZ 450s for its officers to ride.
NewYears 2004/2005
BLM forces exceeding the National Guard in Numbers gun down 140 duners at the bottom of Olds hill for lack of compliance...
Studies show, these were the last 140 duners in the tri state area.
Laugh about it, call it a wild imagination, even get pissy about it.. Why would this be so hard to believe given the past.. maybe 2006?? There is a reason there are less cops then the population. Gang Mentality happens in GROUPS and the enforcement is not excluded from that.
You people that BUY in to this, are only asking the BLM to restrict you and your family further. To direct you and lead you around. Glamis was about freedom. Might as well put up posts and fences making trails to ride on out there and have them be one way to avoid accidents punishable by death.. :rant: >:<
AND they didn't do anything but close areas then. I've said it a million times and I continue to say it. They DONT ENFORCE the existing laws with last years money. Now they need 4 times more money to do just that??
I guess my tiny brain just cannot figure out what all this extra money is for and where last years money came from. :?
FUTURE GLAMIS NEWS HEADLINES.....
Aug 2004 - BLM ramps up full time officers. Now employing 3000 peace officers for the ISDRA Glamis Areas.
Sept 2004 - BLM purchases Light Attack Vehicles formerly retired from the US Marine Corps.
Oct 2004 - BLM signs contracts with Colt Arms for assault rifles and pistols to handle the riots of the coming season.
BLM signs contracts with Yamaha purchasing 1000 04 YFZ 450s for its officers to ride.
NewYears 2004/2005
BLM forces exceeding the National Guard in Numbers gun down 140 duners at the bottom of Olds hill for lack of compliance...
Studies show, these were the last 140 duners in the tri state area.
Laugh about it, call it a wild imagination, even get pissy about it.. Why would this be so hard to believe given the past.. maybe 2006?? There is a reason there are less cops then the population. Gang Mentality happens in GROUPS and the enforcement is not excluded from that.
You people that BUY in to this, are only asking the BLM to restrict you and your family further. To direct you and lead you around. Glamis was about freedom. Might as well put up posts and fences making trails to ride on out there and have them be one way to avoid accidents punishable by death.. :rant: >:<
Law enforcement has been funded primarily by the OHMVR -- the BLM applied for money again this year for the law enforcement.
But keeping Glamis operating is not just about law enforcement.
When the BLM tried to get money last year for all the other stuff that has to be done at Glamis, the OHMVR put those ridiculous conditions on the money. The only reason it didn't go through is because the BLM stood their ground and said they could not enforce the conditions the OHMVR was requesting. If they had not stood their ground, the grants would have gone through and let me tell you... closing sections of Glamis due to "over use" after a holiday weekend was just one of those ugly conditions.
There is so much more to keeping a recreation area open besides law enforcement personnel. The grant provisions for LEO requests do not allow for the OHMVR to write in their own conditions, so those grant requests cannot be changed to suit the OHMVR. They can be whittled down and they can be denied, but the OHMVR cannot place the same types of conditions on the LEO grants that they place on the rest of the grants.
Phew! That was a mouthful.
Alllllll of that aside, we're faced with the reality that Glamis needs money to stay open to our use.
It would be great to hear some better ideas out there... we need solutions.
Vicki
But keeping Glamis operating is not just about law enforcement.
When the BLM tried to get money last year for all the other stuff that has to be done at Glamis, the OHMVR put those ridiculous conditions on the money. The only reason it didn't go through is because the BLM stood their ground and said they could not enforce the conditions the OHMVR was requesting. If they had not stood their ground, the grants would have gone through and let me tell you... closing sections of Glamis due to "over use" after a holiday weekend was just one of those ugly conditions.
There is so much more to keeping a recreation area open besides law enforcement personnel. The grant provisions for LEO requests do not allow for the OHMVR to write in their own conditions, so those grant requests cannot be changed to suit the OHMVR. They can be whittled down and they can be denied, but the OHMVR cannot place the same types of conditions on the LEO grants that they place on the rest of the grants.
Phew! That was a mouthful.
Alllllll of that aside, we're faced with the reality that Glamis needs money to stay open to our use.
It would be great to hear some better ideas out there... we need solutions.
Vicki
| QUOTE |
| You people that BUY in to this, are only asking the BLM to restrict you and your family further. To direct you and lead you around. Glamis was about freedom. Might as well put up posts and fences making trails to ride on out there and have them be one way to avoid accidents punishable by death.. :rant: >:< |
Then suggest some alternatives. Please.
Vicki
| QUOTE |
| I've said it a million times and I continue to say it. They DONT ENFORCE the existing laws You people that BUY in to this, are only asking the BLM to restrict you and your family further. To direct you and lead you around. Glamis was about freedom. Might as well put up posts and fences making trails to ride on out there and have them be one way to avoid accidents punishable by death.. :rant: >:< |
I agree that enforcement of existing law has been lacking....really lacking! Even with the show of force we have had on big weekends. This also goes for enforcing compliance with the Demo Fee.
Maybe I am reading you wrong but where you write "You people that BUY into this," are you saying that because we pay the required Demo Fee that we are buying into it? My choice is to give input (constructive) and fight for what is right.
Sorry greg,
Not those paying for the fee as I will. You can come by wash 13 where we always are and notice EVERYONE has their yellow placard in the windwhield.
BUY was meant for those that say "What ever it takes on any condition".
I see alot of people out there who budget budget budget all year so they can enjoy a couple weekends and weeks a year out there. Why should only those who can afford the high fees get to play?
Vicki,
Alternatives is exactly what we DONT need. Alternatives were closing Comp. Closing Olds. Show of force that ended up in the courts full of Bunk tickets and 14 year old girls getting their heads smashed in because they didnt comply and were stuck.
Alternatives have pushed the party from COMP to OLDS to the road to Olds and to the drags.
I am up to here with Alternatives and new laws. Sometimes the best solution is right in front of you. Often the most simple of solutions can be the most effective.
Here is an example most can understand....
The RULE:
Do not throw the ball in the house.
The KID:
If the kid knows he/she has a chance of getting away with it, they will throw the ball in the house.
If the kid knows the punishment is a joke, they will throw the ball in the house.
The enforcement of the rule is hit or miss they have a chance and will throw the ball in the house.
NOW if the kid knows there will be a beating for throwing the ball in the house will they throw it? Some will but many will not.
Those that do...
The kid finds out that EVERY time he throws the ball he gets caught and beat, will he still throw it? Some will but much less then before.
Those that do...
You end up with one kid out of 1000s who will always throw the ball. You remove that kid from the house. That is what prison if for.
ENFORCE THE EXISTING LAWS WITH 100% CONSISTENCY
Not those paying for the fee as I will. You can come by wash 13 where we always are and notice EVERYONE has their yellow placard in the windwhield.
BUY was meant for those that say "What ever it takes on any condition".
I see alot of people out there who budget budget budget all year so they can enjoy a couple weekends and weeks a year out there. Why should only those who can afford the high fees get to play?
Vicki,
Alternatives is exactly what we DONT need. Alternatives were closing Comp. Closing Olds. Show of force that ended up in the courts full of Bunk tickets and 14 year old girls getting their heads smashed in because they didnt comply and were stuck.
Alternatives have pushed the party from COMP to OLDS to the road to Olds and to the drags.
I am up to here with Alternatives and new laws. Sometimes the best solution is right in front of you. Often the most simple of solutions can be the most effective.
Here is an example most can understand....
The RULE:
Do not throw the ball in the house.
The KID:
If the kid knows he/she has a chance of getting away with it, they will throw the ball in the house.
If the kid knows the punishment is a joke, they will throw the ball in the house.
The enforcement of the rule is hit or miss they have a chance and will throw the ball in the house.
NOW if the kid knows there will be a beating for throwing the ball in the house will they throw it? Some will but many will not.
Those that do...
The kid finds out that EVERY time he throws the ball he gets caught and beat, will he still throw it? Some will but much less then before.
Those that do...
You end up with one kid out of 1000s who will always throw the ball. You remove that kid from the house. That is what prison if for.
ENFORCE THE EXISTING LAWS WITH 100% CONSISTENCY
| QUOTE |
| When the BLM tried to get money last year for all the other stuff that has to be done at Glamis |
I do not want "other stuff".
What "other stuff" could possibly cost ... Hmmm... let's see 200,000 users a year? $125 per year...
TWENTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS???
Did I calculate that right?
Hell, I wouldn't pay TWENTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS for a firm to come out and remove the closure stakes! :shock:
Vor
| QUOTE |
| ENFORCE THE EXISTING LAWS WITH 100% CONSISTENCY |
ABSOLUTELY!!!
But those aren't the alternatives I was talking about 8)
Glamis cannot operate with an operating budget. No matter how much we scream and yell, that is something that cannot be changed. Even if we were completely removed from the sand, Glamis would still need money. Just not as much.
We have two funding choices right now...
1) Ask the OHMVR for the money, which has dire consequences; or
2) Raise the user fees.
If there are other choices, please bring them forward.
Vicki
Please enlighten me on what these alternatives :?: :?
| QUOTE |
| Where did the money come from last year when the fees were 30? |
Easy answer ....
3 million was coming from other areas ... for example Dumont was understaffed, so instead of hiring a needed LEO for Dumont, ISDRA got that money :|
| QUOTE |
| And before anyone says \"fine, let them keep the money, we don't need anything at Glamis\", here's another post from the other board:
Okay, let's for a minute go along with fewer/no services. No EMTs. No bathrooms. No ranger station. No kiosks. No LEOs. Alrighty then. Wait... that would also mean no vendors. Oh well, okay, no vendors. But wait... that would also mean no rangers. No rangers = no monitoring. Nearly 3 years ago, lack of monitoring gave a foothold to a lawsuit that closed down 49,000 acres. Now that is some scary shiat. Vicki |
There's lots of other stuff VOR. Like I said... whether we're there or not, an operating budget is required.
So where will that money come from?
And not everyone will buy the $125 pass. Some will buy the weekly pass.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand how putting an unfair spin on the figures will help.
Vicki
| QUOTE |
| Please enlighten me on what these alternatives :?: :? |
Nope. :shock:
That's up to you and anyone else who doesn't like the two choices we have right now.
I'm running out of ideas :roll2:
Vicki
| QUOTE |
| We have two funding choices right now... 1) Ask the OHMVR for the money, which has dire consequences; or 2) Raise the user fees. If there are other choices, please bring them forward. |
[size=18]OPTION #3
| QUOTE |
| I'm sorry, I just don't understand how putting an unfair spin on the figures will help. |
If $25,000,000 is hyperbole then what is the amount expected to be raised by the new fee increase?
The increase definitely sucks big time . We take two vehicles out, so that would be $250 >:<
I don't know about everyone else, but I for one am on a tight budget right now. This is the last thing I should be putting my precious dollars to. I wish I was 8 again and the dunes were free, oh wait they were free about 3 years ago :roll:
. We take two vehicles out, so that would be $250 >:<
I don't know about everyone else, but I for one am on a tight budget right now. This is the last thing I should be putting my precious dollars to. I wish I was 8 again and the dunes were free, oh wait they were free about 3 years ago :roll:
[quote][size=18]OPTION #3
Unless it is reduced to zero, money has to be brought in. How do you suggest we do that?
Vicki
Unless it is reduced to zero, money has to be brought in. How do you suggest we do that?
Vicki
| QUOTE |
| The increase definitely sucks big time . We take two vehicles out, so that would be $250 >:< |
This is exactly the kind of thing they're asking for input on right now! We've stressed over and over and over again that, angst over the increase aside, expecting anyone to pay the same amount for an additional pass is ridiculous.
Now we should help provide a workable way to enforce the pass. Let's say I buy my season pass for $125 and then a pass for the second vehicle... what's to keep me from loaning that second pass to a friend? And let's not even go into the ethics question... 8) How do we want the BLM to make sure the money is getting there in the first place?
And RideRed... the dunes haven't ever been free... we just didn't know so many of the bloody details.
Vicki
| QUOTE |
| Unless it is reduced to zero, money has to be brought in. How do you suggest we do that? |
I am going to make some generalizations and some assumptions here, in order to save myself a crapload of research time. Please forgive any errors since it's been a long time since 12th grade Government class.
As I understand it every governmental entity, like the Department of the Interier, of which the BLM is a subset of, gets it's legitamacy in the way of a bill just like other federal laws. Somewhere there is a bill which describes the "new" DOI and lists all of it's authority and its functions and it's responsibilities. In order for this "new" department to "come into being" it then has to be funded. The budget for the "new" department goes to the Ways and means committee and they either approve it or disaprove it. If they do not allow funding then the "new" department is a department on paper only and nothing happens.
So, what that means is that there is funding for all projects that come under the auspices of the DOI (including the BLM) that comes from the Federal "General Fund". I'm not sure what the DOI's budget is, but I'm sure it's in the billions!
Now, we have Glamis... a tiny speck on the DOI's list of responsibilities. I think I read somewhere that an operating budget for Glamis of $6 million dollars is a good reference. (I might be wrong here). But the fact is that Glamis is practicly NOTHING to the DOI.
So, the DOI gets underfunded for whatever reason. They then have to "cut back"... They discover that in places like Glamis and many federal forests they will be able to "extort" a "second" tax from the users. They found this out with the "Demo Fee" law.
Now, we've been paying into the "Demo Fee" for several years now. So what does the DOI do? COMPLETELY UNFUND GLAMIS???
| QUOTE |
| Unless it is reduced to zero, money has to be brought in. How do you suggest we do that? |
Where the hell is Glamis's Federal funding?
The reality of the situation is that the DOI can get away with double taxing us, (because of the Demo Fee law) which gives OUR budget money to other DOI areas!!!
We deserve our share too... We paid our taxes. The people that are at Glamis are NOT at other Federal areas.
The fact is that Glamis could probably be funded by reducing funding to any of the large federal parks by less then 5%!!!
And Oh... Where did the $125 number come from? How did they calculate it?
Vor
| QUOTE |
| The fact is that Glamis could probably be funded by reducing funding to any of the large federal parks by less then 5%!!! |
Okay, good thought... now implement it.
And do it before October.
Vicki
[removed uncalled for personal note - vor]
If the BLM did not have Demo Fee, Glamis would be funded as it is supposed to be.
It might be a bit easier to do something if orginizations wern't acquiescing to the extortion on my behalf.
BTW: I have been ACTIVELY opposing Demo Fee since it's inception. I predicted $100 fees, I predicted countless "services" which were not needed or desired. I saw this comming from miles away. My pleas fell on deaf ears.
Vor
If the BLM did not have Demo Fee, Glamis would be funded as it is supposed to be.
It might be a bit easier to do something if orginizations wern't acquiescing to the extortion on my behalf.
BTW: I have been ACTIVELY opposing Demo Fee since it's inception. I predicted $100 fees, I predicted countless "services" which were not needed or desired. I saw this comming from miles away. My pleas fell on deaf ears.
Vor
[edits]
HEY.. Wait a minute.. This ALL started a few years back about a plant. MILLIONS and MILLIONS were spent on studying a WEED. They closed off MASSIVE amounts of public land.
All this is part of getting that land back right? WTF does ALL OF THIS HAVE ANY THING TO DO WITH A WEED.. I never hear about that little POS plant anymore.. only about budgets and how its all going to be ran.. reservations, more BLM, bathrooms, campgrounds, waterparks, golfcourses, hell even a TRAM to take that maggot ecogologist around where he wont hike.. :roll:
Guess we're lucky sand dont burn.. :rant: OH and I want to be the one cleaning those bathrooms, cause you know that guy will get 6 figures based on the amount of money they will receive from our passes.. :rant:
Green and red and yellow stickers must just pay some processing fee that dont mean crap either.. :rant:
HEY.. Wait a minute.. This ALL started a few years back about a plant. MILLIONS and MILLIONS were spent on studying a WEED. They closed off MASSIVE amounts of public land.
All this is part of getting that land back right? WTF does ALL OF THIS HAVE ANY THING TO DO WITH A WEED.. I never hear about that little POS plant anymore.. only about budgets and how its all going to be ran.. reservations, more BLM, bathrooms, campgrounds, waterparks, golfcourses, hell even a TRAM to take that maggot ecogologist around where he wont hike.. :roll:
Guess we're lucky sand dont burn.. :rant: OH and I want to be the one cleaning those bathrooms, cause you know that guy will get 6 figures based on the amount of money they will receive from our passes.. :rant:
Green and red and yellow stickers must just pay some processing fee that dont mean crap either.. :rant:
This just in:
Vor
| QUOTE |
| Just got a call from one of the TRT members...the current strawman from the contractor isn't $125 any more... It's higher. Closer to $200. :shock: |
Vor
| QUOTE |
| It might be a bit easier to do something if orginizations wern't acquiescing to the extortion on my behalf. |
Geez, I sure hope this wasn't sent in my direction. I'm really very upset at this.
If you're going to accuse me of giving in to extortion, you'd better be able to back it up. Until you've sat in my seat at the meetings I've forced myself to sit through... until you've raised your voice in outrage as I have, you have no right to make such accusations.
Hey, I don't like the news any more than anyone else does. But I sat in those meetings and I heard the alternatives and I saw the future of Glamis through the help of the OHMVR.
Without money Glamis will not function. Throwing a fit, holding my breath, screaming out loud, plugging my ears with my fingers... will change that one solid fact.
So DUNERS is trying to make an impossible situation as good as it can be. If you don't like what's happening, do something to change it. Attend one of those meetings where you actually have a chance to make a difference. Don't like what I have to say? Take my place next time.
But don't ever accuse me of giving in to extortion. Or even of backing down. My Grandmother gave me my stubborn streak and I wear it proudly.
Or perhaps you were referring to someone else. I certainly hope so.
Vicki
| QUOTE | ||
This just in:
Vor |
The minutes from the TRT were supposed to be out late this afternoon but nothing yet... as soon as I have them they'll be posted.
Vicki
SailAway, your energy, time, stamina, and help is appreciated immensely...Thank you so much. There just seems to be some worry on where the fee is going to possibly take us.
The $125 fee is a big jump. There are many that will pay no matter what the fee is. The problem is that by pushing the fee up, it looks as if they are admitting the failure of policing last year, when we know it was successful. The operating procedure was incorrectly implemented during the big holidays. Where is the Milkvetch in all of this?
They need to realize that to be successful is to allow the people (Slap is talking about respectful, law abiding duners) to keep doing what they are doing, because it is working (although maybe not as fast as we would like). We have promoted:
-Clean and safe dunes—growing immensely—Just look at all the attention the cleanups
are getting. More and more as the word spreads.
-educating and informing the young generations through our interconnected on-line
community, and also down in the dunes of what is good dune etiquette. We have plenty
of tools for spreading the word. For example, Sand Addiction Magazine (a perfect tool)
is focusing on educating the younger generation to respect, understand, and encourage
proper dune etiquette, the unwritten dune etiquette we talk about right here all the time.
Like the saying goes, Rome wasn’t built in a day.
-Supporting Law Enforcement that is already there and aiding in the ways to better utilize
the people they have. Before the hill closures took place, it was suggested to law
enforcement that they create the rows at the bottom of Olds and Comp before the
crowds show up. It didn’t happen, and unnecessary riot type removal of duners
occurred. They have to listen to us before it will work. There really is
no need to quadruple the number of law enforcement personel for it to work, just better
preparation.
-self policing from duner to duner is working. Slap witnessed one camper go to another
and ask that he not speed by his camp because he had little girls around. It went over
very well, problem solved and an accident or death was possibly prevented. (this
happens a lot between fellow duners, but it is never mentioned or noticed).
-More duners now than ever know what the Milkvetch, SandFood, and Algodones Dunes
Sunflower look like than any other time in Glamis History. This education is right now
beginning to take off like a rocket. The younger generation MUST listen to us because
we are forcing it down their throats. Their appreciation will come in time, but it does
take time.
This is very much a huge success in the short period of time we’ve had since the closures took place. Of course, these things will still be in play during these times of change, but how much change? No, Glamis will not be like it was 30 years ago. However, Glamis CAN be what it was 5 to 10 years ago. The education and interaction is working; let it keep working.
Yes, Slap is downright excited about his plan of placing kiosks in the dunes for informational purposes to fellow duners, and he hopes that it will come through. However, Slap don’t dig having permit only riding areas. Those two MUST be kept separate, because they are. Yes on the Kiosks, no on the permits. And if you are one of those that say there will NEVER be 500 permits used, think again, yes there will. Maybe not now, but there will. And, that’s not the point in the first place.
Some questions that may or may not be relevant, but Slap thinks they are.
With a $125 fee, will there be:
-Structures built on Gecko?
-Will they someday have a gate at the entrance to Gecko? Or even the washes?
-Speed limit signs in the dunes?
-One way lanes up and down Oldsmobile and Comp?
-Motorhome hookups?
-A paved wash road?
-limited access?
-Finally, what is gained by moving vendor row to Gecko?
Glamis is primitive area, the lure of Glamis.
Slap knows that the future look for Glamis by higher ups is that of a park like atmosphere. But how far does that go?
-Upgraded bathrooms? Why for? Just have more ‘Poop Cleaner Rigs’ show up daily on
big holiday weekends?
-Use the same amount of trash bins as we have on big weekends, only more bins picked
up and dumped instead of them being dumped AFTER the weekend.
-enforce existing laws.
Does this merit over a 100% jump in fees? People go where money flows, and they are going to where the money is flowing.
Yes, we want to be in control of OUR dunes. But through the eyes of the puppet, do we know who is pulling the strings?
The $125 fee is a big jump. There are many that will pay no matter what the fee is. The problem is that by pushing the fee up, it looks as if they are admitting the failure of policing last year, when we know it was successful. The operating procedure was incorrectly implemented during the big holidays. Where is the Milkvetch in all of this?
They need to realize that to be successful is to allow the people (Slap is talking about respectful, law abiding duners) to keep doing what they are doing, because it is working (although maybe not as fast as we would like). We have promoted:
-Clean and safe dunes—growing immensely—Just look at all the attention the cleanups
are getting. More and more as the word spreads.
-educating and informing the young generations through our interconnected on-line
community, and also down in the dunes of what is good dune etiquette. We have plenty
of tools for spreading the word. For example, Sand Addiction Magazine (a perfect tool)
is focusing on educating the younger generation to respect, understand, and encourage
proper dune etiquette, the unwritten dune etiquette we talk about right here all the time.
Like the saying goes, Rome wasn’t built in a day.
-Supporting Law Enforcement that is already there and aiding in the ways to better utilize
the people they have. Before the hill closures took place, it was suggested to law
enforcement that they create the rows at the bottom of Olds and Comp before the
crowds show up. It didn’t happen, and unnecessary riot type removal of duners
occurred. They have to listen to us before it will work. There really is
no need to quadruple the number of law enforcement personel for it to work, just better
preparation.
-self policing from duner to duner is working. Slap witnessed one camper go to another
and ask that he not speed by his camp because he had little girls around. It went over
very well, problem solved and an accident or death was possibly prevented. (this
happens a lot between fellow duners, but it is never mentioned or noticed).
-More duners now than ever know what the Milkvetch, SandFood, and Algodones Dunes
Sunflower look like than any other time in Glamis History. This education is right now
beginning to take off like a rocket. The younger generation MUST listen to us because
we are forcing it down their throats. Their appreciation will come in time, but it does
take time.
This is very much a huge success in the short period of time we’ve had since the closures took place. Of course, these things will still be in play during these times of change, but how much change? No, Glamis will not be like it was 30 years ago. However, Glamis CAN be what it was 5 to 10 years ago. The education and interaction is working; let it keep working.
Yes, Slap is downright excited about his plan of placing kiosks in the dunes for informational purposes to fellow duners, and he hopes that it will come through. However, Slap don’t dig having permit only riding areas. Those two MUST be kept separate, because they are. Yes on the Kiosks, no on the permits. And if you are one of those that say there will NEVER be 500 permits used, think again, yes there will. Maybe not now, but there will. And, that’s not the point in the first place.
Some questions that may or may not be relevant, but Slap thinks they are.
With a $125 fee, will there be:
-Structures built on Gecko?
-Will they someday have a gate at the entrance to Gecko? Or even the washes?
-Speed limit signs in the dunes?
-One way lanes up and down Oldsmobile and Comp?
-Motorhome hookups?
-A paved wash road?
-limited access?
-Finally, what is gained by moving vendor row to Gecko?
Glamis is primitive area, the lure of Glamis.
Slap knows that the future look for Glamis by higher ups is that of a park like atmosphere. But how far does that go?
-Upgraded bathrooms? Why for? Just have more ‘Poop Cleaner Rigs’ show up daily on
big holiday weekends?
-Use the same amount of trash bins as we have on big weekends, only more bins picked
up and dumped instead of them being dumped AFTER the weekend.
-enforce existing laws.
Does this merit over a 100% jump in fees? People go where money flows, and they are going to where the money is flowing.
Yes, we want to be in control of OUR dunes. But through the eyes of the puppet, do we know who is pulling the strings?
How did a place that we all enjoy so much and never cost us anything before get so fucked up. No one gave a shit about it until it got on the news for being so crazy. Now that the politicians have noticed it it's going to cost us a arm and a leg just to go camping there. So whats going to happen when the majority of us just say it's not worth it anymore and stop going. I am with RRon3, I just can't afford to be paying these fees and you know they will go up when people stop showing and they have to adjust to keep the money flowing...How much are you guys willing to pay...
Don't raise the price to camp , Raise the price of the penaltys , charge the people who don't get a pass $250 - $300 for there lawlessness . make the people who don't fallow the rules pay through the nose not the people who do otherwise they will just turn the lawful peeps into the law breakers also.
| QUOTE | ||||
The minutes from the TRT were supposed to be out late this afternoon but nothing yet... as soon as I have them they'll be posted. Vicki |
I'm confused here....obviously whoever was working with the BLM to get "our thoughts to them" got it BACKWARDS-we went from $30 to a "possible" $125-and no one was happy about that-and now the word is "closer to $200". Where/when is it the BLM is listening to what the "avg. duner" has to say???
Julie
I look at it as Fleecing the Public Trust.
:x
Is not?? the Gov.. the Trustees of our Public Lands?
Look it up!
They will take as much as they can untill there is resistance.
and it started with the NFS Adventure pass.
Thank you Mary Bono for helping get that passed.
That lead the way to what we have today.
Thats when it was implemented that the Public lands could become Revenue producers
:x
Is not?? the Gov.. the Trustees of our Public Lands?
Look it up!
They will take as much as they can untill there is resistance.
and it started with the NFS Adventure pass.
Thank you Mary Bono for helping get that passed.
That lead the way to what we have today.
Thats when it was implemented that the Public lands could become Revenue producers
ok, i've got my first son just weeks away, and a large portion of my desert fund is going to him. i cannot afford the extra camping fee, and will avoid it at all costs.
if worst case scenario is paying higher costs for camping, why not flood the market with fake passes. make their passes worthless. if i can get my pass off the internet for $10, or on the corner from Joe Blow, i am going to do it. I support glamis and love the desert, but i will not pay an outrageous fee to camp.
my wife doesn't come with me, and all my buddies drive separate. i'm thinking that $125 split between friends looks better than $125 spent by everybody.
just my .02
it may be lawlessness, but its the honest people that are becoming the criminals.
if worst case scenario is paying higher costs for camping, why not flood the market with fake passes. make their passes worthless. if i can get my pass off the internet for $10, or on the corner from Joe Blow, i am going to do it. I support glamis and love the desert, but i will not pay an outrageous fee to camp.
my wife doesn't come with me, and all my buddies drive separate. i'm thinking that $125 split between friends looks better than $125 spent by everybody.
just my .02
it may be lawlessness, but its the honest people that are becoming the criminals.
Spicoli:
My dads a repographic specialist!
He's got the ultimate set of tools!
I can Fix it! :twisted:
My dads a repographic specialist!
He's got the ultimate set of tools!
I can Fix it! :twisted:
| QUOTE |
| SailAway, your energy, time, stamina, and help is appreciated immensely...Thank you so much. There just seems to be some worry on where the fee is going to possibly take us. |
Thank you Slappy, but it's not neccesary to appreciate me... I'm only handing out information.
And I understand the concern about the fee increase and I share it. But shooting the messenger sure won't make it go away.
Tell you what. Let's all just go in search of the blue pill. That way the unpleasant surprises will hit without warning and we can all say "If I had known ahead of time I could have done something about it" when it's too late to actually do something about it.
Life is much simpler that way.
Vicki
| QUOTE |
| All this is part of getting that land back right? WTF does ALL OF THIS HAVE ANY THING TO DO WITH A WEED.. I never hear about that little POS plant anymore.. only about budgets and how its all going to be ran.. reservations, more BLM, bathrooms, campgrounds, waterparks, golfcourses, hell even a TRAM to take that maggot ecogologist around where he wont hike.. :roll: |
The business plan has nothing to do with getting any land back.
It is being designed to provide more accurate "deliverables" for managing public lands. Glamis is not the only area getting a shiney new business plan.
Even if the OHMVR was more cooperative a business plan would be written. It's required now. The fact that this one has a fee increase thrown in is just coincidental.
There has to be a way to make the BLM accountable for what they do, what they buy, how they spend the money. This business plan is supposed to help solve those problems.
Vicki
That's the problem they want to turn glamis into a business. It's not it's a wilderness...
They see all these people with there 40 to 90 thousand dollar buggies and they want a peace of the pie. they look at it as if you can affords that shinney new car then you can afford a couple of hundred bucks a year to use it. SUCKERS
They see all these people with there 40 to 90 thousand dollar buggies and they want a peace of the pie. they look at it as if you can affords that shinney new car then you can afford a couple of hundred bucks a year to use it. SUCKERS
Those beautiful dunes that we gaze at across the highway... the ones that are unmarked by tire tracks... the ones that show an occasional set of footprints leading in and then out again...
That's wilderness. And it has an operating budget.
But the area that contains sand highway... Oldsmobile Hill... Osborne Overlook... Gecko Road...
That's a recreation area. And it has an operating budget -- one that is much bigger than the wilderness area's operating budget.
The OHMVR has cut off the money train (unless of course we're willing to change the rec area into a wilderness area). The government funding has always been inadequate and is only dwindling more. The fee program at its current level brings in less than $1 million for an area that requires a great deal more (with compliance at only 41% is it any wonder?).
That leaves us right where we are at this minute.
That's wilderness. And it has an operating budget.
But the area that contains sand highway... Oldsmobile Hill... Osborne Overlook... Gecko Road...
That's a recreation area. And it has an operating budget -- one that is much bigger than the wilderness area's operating budget.
The OHMVR has cut off the money train (unless of course we're willing to change the rec area into a wilderness area). The government funding has always been inadequate and is only dwindling more. The fee program at its current level brings in less than $1 million for an area that requires a great deal more (with compliance at only 41% is it any wonder?).
That leaves us right where we are at this minute.
125 was bad enough now it could be higher, who can we write to bitch to?, my woman has steam coming out her ears...... >:< >:<
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