I just wanted to take a moment and say a few things that kind of have to do with the fee increase thread, but I don't want to take away from the discussion there.

When I come on and talk about what I know or what DUNERS has been learning, in no way should it imply that I or we support the issue we're discussing. One goal of DUNERS is to help keep people from being surprised with changes at the Imperial Dunes, so when we first learned about the proposed business plan we started getting into the heart of the matter as much as possible.

That takes phone calls, emails, offers of help, and an overall persistence in getting across to the BLM that the duning community must be more actively involved in what happens to their dunes. This takes diligence and stubborness and nagging and especially the ability to get back up after a brawl and jump back into the fray.

But at no time should our efforts indicate that we're happy with or settling for what's been handed to us. When I call Bryan and warn him that a news report just said his usual way home is jammed shut with traffic, that doesn't mean I love traffic jams or that it's a dandy situation.

It just means that I didn't want him to come screaming around a corner into a mess.

Vicki

Vicki,

Every clear thinking duner knows that.

DUNERs does a great job with informing the duners .... there will be all the time some people that know it better :rant: and others that need some attention :oops: , but would never do something to help the situation :x .... you know BS is not the only troll here :shock:

[quote]duning community must be more actively involved in what happens to their dunes.[/quote]

the dunes belong to all 275,000,000 American citizens, not just the duning community. Try to remember that.

As I thought, with a shriek, of how Friday
Would burst into corduroy pants.
And I drove like a fiend as I cried, "Day Advance!"

Thanks Thomas.

It's a shame that thread (and the one on the ASA board) was hijacked... there were some good ideas actually sprouting before that happened.

Thanks for the needed reminder

Vicki

Less you accuse me of hijacking the thread, I just thought you should know.
I recieved a couple of phone calls (I do not even know how these people got my number).

They asked me if you had been brainwashed by the BLM.

I said I didn't think that was possible, BUT?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[quote]That takes phone calls, emails, offers of help, and an overall persistence in getting across to the BLM that the duning community must be more actively involved in what happens to their dunes. This takes diligence and stubborness and nagging and especially the ability to get back up after a brawl and jump back into the fray. [/quote]

D.U.N.E.R.S And you seem to be working so hard. Thanks for the explaination.
I just don't think you are getting across the right thing to the BLM.
[quote]"getting across to the BLM that the duning community must be more actively involved in what happens to their dunes"[/quote]
The duning community consists of (over 90%) of people that don't even know what is going on about the RAMP/Closures/The BLM.
While you try to convey a hopeless message to the BLM, they listen and wonder.
We (I speak as a member of the DC but not for them) just don't trust the BLM.

Keep up the good work. I know you'll continue to do your best.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[quote]duning community must be more actively involved in what happens to their dunes. This takes diligence and stubborness and nagging and especially the ability to get back up after a brawl and jump back into the fray. [/quote]
It finally hit me, YOU are this dunning community that you speak of.
"diligence :shock: /stubborness >:< /nagging :.(. "
Have a great dune day
Steve

Me? I am just...

Steve, you said...

[quote]I just don't think you are getting across the right thing to the BLM. [/quote]

So tell me what the "right thing" is? For reasons of your own, you seem to hold DUNERS responsible for the fee increase, and maybe even the sound limits....who knows what else.

Then you add...

[quote]It finally hit me, YOU are this duning community that you speak of.[/quote]

And all this time I thought that WE were the duning community...including the the less than 10% that are somewhat enlightened about what is going on at the ISDRA and with the BLM.

And then you say...

[quote]We (I speak as a member of the DC but not for them) just don't trust the BLM.[/quote]


Are you advocating that because "we" don't trust the BLM that we should all stand by and let the BLM decide on their own how much to charge, ect...and ignore the fact that they are asking for our input? Everyone loves to complain that our government entities never listen to the "little people"...but now that the opportunity is there, you don't want to take advantage of the offer? Isn't it worth the risk? What have we got to lose?

I don't have much faith in our beaurocratic system either...but just standing by and missing an opportunity, however small it may be, to have a say in what happens to the ISDRA is unacceptable to me. For you or anyone else to insinuate that DUNERS is somehow subverting the fee process is really sad.

Hey, you know what? This is the second time I've seen this "This is sad" thing..."

L e t ' s g e t THIS s t r a i g h t!

NO ONE here blames DUNERS for the fee increase, SPECIFCALLY!!!
But from my point of view, and I'm sure I speak for some others, activly working with the BLM in administering, enforcing and otherwise supporting this new increase, IS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS HERE!

[quote]I just don't think you are getting across the right thing to the BLM.[/quote]
This says alot here...

I'm not so sure false pity is called for... but if so then here...
I feel so sad for everyone who has been used by the BLM and other agencies of the government for unscrupleous purposes. You don't seem able to understand just how you have been duped into believing that things will be better if we "Just let the Government do their job"... I feel so terrible for you being blind to obvious facts and simply unable to think freely. I hope you all get better soon.

Vor

VOR, you are right to a certin degree...

Here is how I see it, If the government would have done there job right the first time there would be no need to talk about a "fee" increase. Cause everyone using the ISDRA would be paying for a pass or apying a LARGE fine for not having one! :rant:


Please help us save us from ourselves....

[quote]You don't seem able to understand just how you have been duped into believing that things will be better if we "Just let the Government do their job"[/quote]

Hey now...

That's precisely what you advocate when you continue to warn everyone away from making the effort.

Without people at least trying, the only option is to leave these agencies to their own devices and "let them do their job."

Hey, it's worked so well in the past, why start taking control now right?

To each their own.

I personally don't think it's been working out all that well, so I think maybe I'll just keep on trying.

Vicki

If you're gonna go to bed with the BLM then I'm sorry, you're gonna take the same heat.
You know damn well that I've NEVER supported the BLM and that I never will...
We have a fundamental difference of opinion. At least I understand where you are comming from... but you do not even make the effort to see another point of view. You just attack.

My belief is that what you and DUNERS is doing is HARMING Glamis. I also understand that you "gotta do what you gotta do"... So I compromize... I don't ATTACK... but I critisize. Sometimes the critism is harsh... too bad, grow up... if you're stance is so "justified" and "correct" then you should have no problem defending it.

So, before continue with this "I'm doing and you are not" crap... This, "I have been to meetings so that makes me and my ideas more valid" crap... Stop for a second and realize that the fact that you've been able to hear the message "straight from the horses mouth" doesn't "CHANGE THE MESSAGE"...
We're still getting reamed... you are still allyed with the REAMERS and as such will be critisized... rightfully or not...

Vor

[quote]Here is how I see it, If the government would have done there job right the first time there would be no need to talk about a "fee" increase. [/quote]

You are so right.

Even setting aside the enforcement issue, there's another little detail that a lot of people don't think about (it's been mentioned at the various Taco Tuesday-type gatherings though).

The reason the OHVMR is able to put such a stronghold on our money isn't just because of the political issues. It is also because, let's be blunt here, for years many of the land management agencies haven't been forced to truly manage their areas or the money they get for those areas, including Glamis, which is pretty much why a "Business Plan" was ordered. Remember, it's not just heading to Glamis... the business plans are desert-wide.

It's obvious the BLM has screwed up.

Knowing that, where do we go from here?

Should we do as some have suggested and just let them manage themselves?

Or should we insist on being involved?

Vicki

You're right, I don't see your point. I don't see how discouraging open communication can ever be a good thing and I'm sorry, but that's what I get out of your posts.

I understand mistrust. I have it too or I would not insist on getting this involved.

[quote]If you're gonna go to bed with the BLM then I'm sorry, you're gonna take the same heat.[/quote]

Brian, you are wrong and your implication is offensive and you have no basis on which to make such a remark.

It is unbelievable that you would even accuse me of such a thing.

Vicki

VOR, While I understand your point, you have offered no ideas that would be better.

First off, NOBODY wants to spend more money!!!

Secondly, I think keeping a good relationship with the BLM is more important than making them our enemies. And if they are our enemies, isn't it better to know what they are doing?

Thirdly, if you could do one thing (right now), what would you do to make the dunes better. I don't want to hear some crap about how it was 5-10 years ago, I am talking about right now. And this isn't about politics either, this is about funding and trying to work within the parameters we have. The BLM isn't going away, so tell me, what would you do??? You can't tell me away with trash containers, EMT's, and LEO's, they will be not go away.

And Vicki, Pioneers always take the arrows.....

Well, one thing alot of people don't seem to realize is that from May to Oct there is only a skeleton crew. 4 months are done with 1-2 people. So sure Glamis cannot be run without funds but I still do not see how it adds up even at 40%.

[quote]if you could do one thing (right now)[/quote]

Enforce the existing law again and again and again and again and again. Part of that means a GOAL of 100%. Not a number of 40%. Seems the BLM is willing to live with 40% and that is the crime if you ask me. I drew the little pic in the other post about the kids playing ball in the house.. A few beating later no one plays ball in the house.

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHERE 41% CAME FROM? I went to Glamis tons last year and have yet to see a person counting the cars coming through. If they need a new employee to do that, I can do it. Im a real good counter and can ride around counting all the rigs in the dunes. :mrgreen:

So I offended you..?

Ok, here we are with me being told... "Let's hear YOUR ideas" for about the UMPTEENTH time.... As if I haven't given any ideas.

I've seen my ideas expanded upon by many different people on this and the ASA's board. SOMEONE is hearing what I've been saying...

So... for the sake of the hard of hearing...

.... CUT SPENDING!

To keep this simple, I'll stick with just one little idea...

Cut spending...

Don't try to figure out ways to spend the fee money... figure out a way to make the fee affordable!!!


You want ideas on how to COLLECT my hard earned money?
Well, for starters... if you are going to charge those exorbinate fees then you had better come up with a DAY USE PASS... I'll be damned before I spend $30 or $40 for a week when I'm only going to be there one or two days...

Of course the "Day Use Pass" will require a whole crapload more burocracy to support it... so that means the pass cost will probably go up... but hell, I'm just a pessimist who doesn't believe in actually doing anything. I'm just a loudmouthed blowhard.

[quote][quote]
If you're gonna go to bed with the BLM then I'm sorry, you're gonna take the same heat.[/quote]


Brian, you are wrong and your implication is offensive and you have no basis on which to make such a remark.

It is unbelievable that you would even accuse me of such a thing.[/quote]

Does DUNERS support a new, incredibly higher Demo Fee and are you working with the BLM to find ways to "properly" spend the new found riches? What did I misunderstand? What "implication" did I make and why is it offensive? I didn't "imply" anything. I STATED that if you are going to "support" the BLM in RAISING the DEMO FEE to ASTRONOMICAL prices then you're gonna get some heat over it. Did you expect everyone to be happy about this?

I'm sorry you were offended. That was never the intention.

But you need to realize that your opinion and your methods are NOT the only opinions and the only methods... and trying to pretend that they are is not helping any more then my retoric is helping.

Get over the personal issues here. This is far too important for that.

Vor

Chummin, I agree with you 100% percent. And I am not sticking up for the BLM in any way. I have always been the proponent that raising fees will do more harm in the long run. I believe it opens the door for off site campgrounds to sprout up on any private lands near the dunes. We are not paying for the dunes, we are paying for the right to camp and park there. Why pay $200.00 or more when you can go over to the Boardmanville full hook up campground for less, could even have a pool????

Enforcement is always been the problem, even some members of this BB say they won't pay any fee, so we all get stuck footing the bill for them. There are many ways to enforce the ways the Rangers enforce the demo fee. Right now, blocking the exits from camping areas on big weekends is lame.

1-the rangers can go around from camp to camp and check, I like this idea because it allows then to check other things, like green stickers and campsites that are messy. It also allows them to do some PR at the same time. But man power is lacking to do this?

2-put up gates and guard shacks at the high traffic entrances(Gecko and washroad) to camping areas. I hate this, this would just make closing things down easier.

3-keep it like it is and do it more frequent. No opinion on this one, and probably the most likely?

Any other ideas to make sure the other 59% start paying????

VOR, this is the government, "Cut Spending"???? like that will happen!!! How do you suggest the BLM deal with only 41% compliance with the Demo Fees?? "Cut Spending"???? "Cut Spending" would mean less services, which would lead the BLM to limit the users? I know it is a reach, but something they can make an arguement for if they can't make it with the funds they have now!

I do think some of the overspending is because the BLM is using people from other areas on big weekends and paying them overtime to sit and watch buggies go up and down OLDS all day. But on the other hand, I think there needs to be at least 2 rangers on duty all year long. I don't think that is the case now???????

[quote]VOR, this is the government, "Cut Spending"???? like that will happen!!![/quote]
It will definantly not happen if we don't say anything. It will definantly not happen if we sit back and watch as the government takes more and more of our money to spend it "how they see fit".
It will definantly not happen as long as let them continue to get away with their current policies.

41% compliance??? My left foot!!!
Each and every holiday and many other weekends the BLM and the parking attendants are there, at the exits FORCING everyone to purchass their pass... You cannot exit without paying.
Where do they get the 41% number?

[quote]And Vicki, Pioneers always take the arrows.....[/quote]

I don't mind the arrows. I don't even mind facing an angry mob with bad news. But after everything I've worked against, all the "good ol' boy" ties I've severed because I refuse to compromise, Brian's false accusation is really too much.

Not once, in all of this long drawn out battle of words over the last week have I said I or DUNERS promote, support, like or agree with any of the changes coming up. I have even gone so far as to offer my personal opinion, which is that I hate the increase and don't approve of the BLM's past performance. Pretty rotten "support" if you ask me.

The goal was (for the umteenth time), to put out as much information as we are given, so that people can make their own decisions. And somehow by passing along the information I get accused of giving in to extortion and now to being in bed with the BLM. Re-read the post that started this thread and you'll see how ridiculous that is.

No one was talking about this issue publicly until it was brought up on the ASA bulletin board by a fellow DUNERS board member. Now anyone who disagrees with the fee increase at least has some advance warning and can do something about it. The alternative was to wait until it was in ink and out of everyone's hands before releasing the information. I guess I just don't see the benefit in that.

Chummin, Neil Hamada told me the formula they used for the 41% but I can't find it in my notes and I don't remember it completely. I'll see if I can track it down.

And they are most certainly shooting for higher than 41% compliance. 100% would, of course, be perfect but that would require fences and gates. Still, they are shooting for 90% compliance and even I think that's a pretty lofty goal.

Vicki

[quote]Quote:
VOR, this is the government, "Cut Spending"???? like that will happen!!!

It will definantly not happen if we don't say anything. It will definantly not happen if we sit back and watch as the government takes more and more of our money to spend it "how they see fit".
It will definantly not happen as long as let them continue to get away with their current policies.
[/quote]

Then why aren't you helping Vicki with these meeting with the BLM? Telling everyone on the BB's isn't going to get your point across to the BLM. We would love to see the fee stay the same, and I am sure Vicki would too, unless she won the lotto sometime ago and we haven't heard??? Why aren't you jumping at the chance to get involved with DUNERS? They have the BLM's ear, jump in and take a leadership role.

[quote]41% compliance??? My left foot!!!
Each and every holiday and many other weekends the BLM and the parking attendants are there, at the exits FORCING everyone to purchass their pass... You cannot exit without paying.
Where do they get the 41% number?
[/quote]

who knows where they get their numbers, but the numbers that are right is that they only collected around $750,000 last year, that would mean only 25,000 people paid (if you use the $30.00 season pass as a reference) There are many ways to get out of paying, only pay for the day you are leaving, leave early, leave on Saturday, leave on Monday, or don't park in places that you would be trapped on Sunday afternoon.

So let's say, only 50% of the people paid last year and they will pay this year, that might gives us $1.5 million to run the dunes this season?????Probably not enough to run the dunes 4 years ago???



[quote]

So... for the sake of the hard of hearing...
[/quote]

I hear ya :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[quote]
Enforcement is always been the problem, even some members of this BB say they won't pay any fee, so we all get stuck footing the bill for them. There are many ways to enforce the ways the Rangers enforce the demo fee. Right now, blocking the exits from camping areas on big weekends is lame.

1-the rangers can go around from camp to camp and check, I like this idea because it allows then to check other things, like green stickers and campsites that are messy. It also allows them to do some PR at the same time. But man power is lacking to do this?
[/quote]

PERFECT!

IF this 41% is a real number, then this is the answer.
Going around the camps enforing this keeps rangers at all ends of Glamis all the time. (makes it better saftey wise for hurt peeps in the sand).
It help keep it cleen and safer (speed limits and litter)
When they find someone camping with out a pass, they get THE FINE AND HAVE TO PAY FOR A PASS.
NOW instead of 41% they are getting 90% and the fines are a nice suppliment for those extra officers we needed so bad on new years :roll: .
Now you have the money needed to fund the extra camp attendents and our fees are still at a reasonable amount for us people who make less than 3 million a year <---- joke.

OH, and no more camping and then getting a pass. You must have a pass to enter. NO - No one sits there waiting for you, they will be by later to check. :black:

I love this idea.

I really like the idea of making the contractor who takes the money responsible for compliance. Not a bonus system, but more like what they do to construction contractors... an "incentive" for beefing up compliance or a "demerit" system for lack of compliance.

The contract for the current contractors runs out at the end of September and new choices must be reviewed. Maybe this could be a condition of who gets picked.

Vicki

80,000 * 50 = 4,000,000
5000 * 25 = 125,000
8,000 * 250 = 2,000,000
1,000 * 300 = 300,000
500 * 350 = 175,000

Total @ 95% = 6,600,000


Annual Pass 50.00
2nd car pass 25.00 (must be present with annual pass vehicle)

Camp fines
1st offense = 250
2nd offense = 300
3rd offense = 350

Daily or weekly passes would only add more..

(edit - Those numbers represent number of passes purchased which include the one people are forced to buy. No forgetting your pass)

Vicki, I do like the idea of the contractor policing the passes, in the long term, I like the Rangers doing it. I know it cost more, but I think it can go along way to eliminate the "bad element" at the same time.

The "Bad Element's" camp is always a mess the morning after, and the Rangers would go from camp to camp from 8am-10am every morning. They would get littering tickets, and it might make some people take better ownership of their camp(and even maybe the dunes)?

It would also allow more and better interaction with the duners and Rangers. Communication and education is the key to all our problems, the Rangers could be doing some of this while checking. Imagine a group that parks near the same spot everytime out, after only a couple of times, the Rangers would get to know the group and feel comfortable to approach, it also would allow better self policing in each person't campsite.

Negative to this plan???????????? I don't know.............

VOR,
I don't read through all of these threads, because to be quite honest it gets to be the same old song and dance, and after three years I'm tired of reading the same things posted over and over. However, I do have a comment and a related question.

It seems like virtually all of your posts regarding the ISDRA and the RAMP involve your unhappiness with the situation in the dunes: laws, law enforcement, and the RAMP. Your posts typically contain statements like "if we let the BLM get away with" whatever. Taking more money, doing this, doing that, enforcing this, not enforcing that, so on, and so forth.

I have asked you before what you suggest we DO, and I don't recall if you answered me. I'm starting to get the impression that you don't want to "put up with" anything the BLM is trying to do, yet you have no solutions for the BLM other than to leave everyone alone and make duning free, and you have no suggestions for the dune community except "don't put up with it." So what exactly do you suggest we do?

Ok,
Explain to me why I am not entitled to comment on the debate without being "taken to task" by everyone.

I would LOVE to comment on this issue... but guess what...
I'm against it!!! Should I keep my mouth shut so you guys can get on with it?

I do not want Rangers in my camp, no way, no how... NO! So, hit me with the..
"If you don't have anything to hide then what's your problem."
It's my camp. It's PRIVATE while I am camped there. It is as PRIVATE as my HOME is.



Poiks... http://www.freeourforests.org is orginized opposition to Demo Fee. Supporting them is paramount, (and what I currently do regarding the current situation)

So, maybe you are all right. I don't have any answers. I am going to sit back and watch while good meaning people cause the cost for duning go so high that I will no longer be able to pursue my hobby.

It is being taken away from me and others like me.
Enjoy your disneyland, folks... I, for one will move on.

[quote]Does DUNERS support a new, incredibly higher Demo Fee and are you working with the BLM to find ways to "properly" spend the new found riches? What did I misunderstand? What "implication" did I make and why is it offensive? I didn't "imply" anything. I STATED that if you are going to "support" the BLM in RAISING the DEMO FEE to ASTRONOMICAL prices then you're gonna get some heat over it. Did you expect everyone to be happy about this?[/quote]

Will you please show me where DUNERS is supporting ANY increase? We're trying to figure out ways to CUT costs and passing our ideas on to the BLM because the BLM asked for input.

Will you please show me where DUNERS is "working with the BLM to find ways to "properly" spend the new found riches?" New found riches?

[quote] From my point of view, and I'm sure I speak for some others, activly working with the BLM in administering, enforcing and otherwise supporting this new increase, IS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS HERE[/quote]

Brian, do you really believe that DUNERS has that much power or influence? Do you really believe that DUNERS is "activly working with the BLM in administering, enforcing and otherwise supporting" this new increase"?

C'mon, dude...you're letting your imagination get the best of you!! :roll2: Everyone here knows that you view most, if not all, branches and departments of the government with contempt. You have that right...knock yourself out. Usually I can get something positive from some of your "rants"...but not this time. In my opinion, You're just mad.

[quote]I do not want Rangers in my camp, no way, no how... NO! So, hit me with the..
"If you don't have anything to hide then what's your problem."
It's my camp. It's PRIVATE while I am camped there. It is as PRIVATE as my HOME is[/quote]

Everywhere else that you camp and pay a fee, you get a Ranger coming by, why not the ISDRA?? Actually in the forest if you camp, even if you don't have to pay, you will get a Forest Service ranger by to make sure you know all the rules, why not the ISDRA? And your camp is not private property, only your vehicle is....................................

While you folks beat up on VOR, I just posted my thoughts in numbers and well ???

6+ million dollars with a slight increase. anyone? anyone??

does that seem reasonable?

VOR,

Ok I would like to straight something here (and you can be mad at somebody else) ...

You know why you get fee increase ...

the OHV community has enough from spending that much from their money for the ISDRA ....

It is that simple and it was clear that there will be a fee increase after the OHV leadership meeting a year ago ( Vicki was not there ... she was still ASA at that time :shock: :roll: )

Thomas is right on both accounts.

The ISDRA has been a drain on a lot of other areas and the OHV leaders and organizations that support those areas are quite tired of it.

And I wasn't there until after the dust had settled and everyone had their jaw set.

The thought to make the ISDRA self sufficient may have gelled after the last round of grants, but the drive to make the ISDRA less of a drain on the other areas had started long before.

Vicki

[quote]6+ million dollars with a slight increase. anyone? anyone?? [/quote]

I'm trying to remember just what the amount is that has been used up each year over the last couple of years, but yeah, $6 million sounds good.

That's at 95% compliance, so we'll have to find out not only how much it has actually taken to run the ISDRA over the last, let's say, 4 years, but also how much will it cost to either increase manpower or give an extra cut to the contractors for a compliance improvement of 54%.

Vicki

Here in Az we have private contracters that run our photo radar programs ,they get a rediculis amount of the actual ticket $ and the city's get squat. In there defense they do have some overhead they got to buy the van the photo eqip and pay the guy to sit there so we don't tip the dam thing over .
So what I want to know is , Out of my $10 that im curently paying where does it go ?
How much $ goes to the contractor ,how much will they get /w/ the new fee .
Im about as pissed as I can get at the BLM and I need a new dog to kick ![/i]

[quote]How much $ goes to the contractor ,how much will they get /w/ the new fee.[/i][/quote]

The first year they got quite a bit. Some ridiculous amount, due to the fact that they were the only game in town and it was such a new system.

Last year they go much less.

I don't have the exact figures at my fingertips, but I could find them.

When I heard the figures I remember thinking to myself I sure couldn't do what they do on that kind of money. They hire the staff, fuss with the machines, and put up with a great deal of verbal abuse. Yikes.

The thing is, what really matters is what's coming up and that can't be answered until the new fees are set in stone and also not until a contractor is chosen.

Vicki

Someone was asking where the 41% figure came from...

I just received the minutes from the last TRT meeting and here's what was said:

"[The BLM] used the number of vehicles that visited the ISDRA and the number of passes sold to determine the compliance rate. However there are several variables like the number of times a season pass holder comes to the Dunes, and the vehicles that are counted twice during one weekend or not counted at all. This is the best data we have available right now. Compliance is about 41% right now."

Vicki

Chummin, you made a comment about us folks beating up on VOR :.(. ...and that is not my intent. My remarks are not personal...I just ask pointed questions and I do expect clear and concise answers... :rant: :rant: :rant:

Brian knows we all have nuthin but luv for him...!!! :love: :love: :love:

[quote]
The ISDRA has been a drain on a lot of other areas and the OHV leaders and organizations that support those areas are quite tired of it.

And I wasn't there until after the dust had settled and everyone had their jaw set.

The thought to make the ISDRA self sufficient may have gelled after the last round of grants, but the drive to make the ISDRA less of a drain on the other areas had started long before.

Vicki[/quote]

I agree ... except there was not must dust at that meeting (again was the meeting before your first :wink: ) ... Nobody told us that there could be less money spend ... the ISDRA groups at that meeting were telling us that the way the BLM was going is the best way ...

VOR, "your DC" was not represented ... so we had to listen to the DC that was there

THAT IS HOW THEY CAME UP /W/ THE NUMBER What was there wegee board broke for that meeting .

[quote]THAT IS HOW THEY CAME UP /W/ THE NUMBER What was there wegee board broke for that meeting .[/quote]

hehehe

The sad truth is, unless we want fences and gates I don't think there's a way we'll ever have a truly 100% accurate count.

Vicki

We all gonna take a real deep breath, this thread be a good one.

Slap is real curious. And it has probably been said a million times already about what Slap is gonna ask, but it still ain't real clear. Now here be some questions:

1. What IF there was no interaction with the BLM on this matter and matters with Glamis from the Duning Community--What would happen and what would be the outcome?



2. How is this interaction hurting the Duning Community?



3. How is this interaction helping the Duning Community?




And finally, what services would these fees pay for?

I say if they sell 100 weekend passes and only write 1 ticket for failure to complie then were at 99% compliant it's all about how you twist the numbers .
Look at it this way , on any busy weekend the LEO's fail to do there job 59% of the time .

Slappy asks...

[quote]1. What IF there was no interaction with the BLM on this matter and matters with Glamis from the Duning Community--What would happen and what would be the outcome?[/quote]

Sarcastic answer..VOR, Steve and Jason would STILL complain...

My answer...we would have no way of knowing until the outcome and we would have to live with whatever decisions the BLM made.

[quote]2. How is this interaction hurting the Duning Community?[/quote]

Sarcastic answer...see sarcastic answer #1.

My answer...The worst thing that could happen is that our real concerns would go unanswered.


[quote]3. How is this interaction helping the Duning Community?[/quote]

Sarcastic answer...see sarcastic answers #1 and #2

My answer...If nothing else comes from this, we just might gain some insight into the inner-workings of the BLM...

No easy answers here, Slap...we have to define "real concerns", and there looks like there are some people that are anti-DUNERS, so whatever I say is subject to criticism. Oh, well...

The fact remains that whether we like it or not, changes are coming. If overthrowing the government or somehow changing the way they operate is the only way to stop it...we had better hurry before it's too late.

For the kind of money these guys are talking about charging us and collecting:
I would say:
Subcontract it out to whatever agency/contractor would do it for the best price.
Renegociate annually.
and cut the BLM out entirely.
Of course, the whole place would have to be opened up to do this properly.( just to make it fair for the contractors)

Maybe Im missing something here. VOR ask’s…

[quote] Does DUNERS support a new, incredibly higher Demo Fee and are you working with the BLM to find ways to "properly" spend the newfound riches? What did I misunderstand?[/quote]

Somehow implying that watching over the BLM to insure proper spending is bad.
Then VOR says…

[quote] It will certainly not happen if we don't say anything. It will certainy not happen if we sit back and watch as the government takes more and more of our money to spend it "how they see fit".
It will certainly not happen as long as let them continue to get away with their current policies. [/quote]

Your saying the same thing you’re complaining about. Your talk about cutting spending is a pipe dream. It is not going to happen, and perhaps in many ways shouldn’t happen. Notice I said MANY ways, Not ALL ways, please don’t turn that around on me. I enjoy the fact that you have opinions, and are willing to express them. Perhaps rather than being a person that only complains, you could turn your attention to actually doing some good. Get involved in the fight. Yes, I know you have a right to bitch, but your complaints have little if any credibility. Its kinda like if you don’t vote, don’t bitch…
Get involved man…

THIS POST HAS BEEN RE-EDITED BY THE POSTER!!!

Tom-- you say that cutting costs is a "pipe dream" and Oldtimer above says that that cutting costs is exactly what DUNERS is trying to do. If your going to be an ass, at least get your story straight.

How anyone in a responsible position with any organization could make a "pipe dream " comment regarding reducing expenses of any governmental organization is beyond me. Of course there is fat waiting to be trimmed. If you don't understand Tom, that means that cost can be reduced and it isn't a pipe dream.

I want to make it clear that I support the efforts of DUNERS to work with BLM. It may prove to be a waste of time, but it is time worth spending just in case the BLM listens and reacts. I am very appreciative of the efforts of all that have spent time on this. I think that these people are a little sensitive to questions or comments that do not agree with their personal views. Input has been requested, but if it doesn't agree with your way of thinking, attack mode is engaged. I know that DUNERS is simply attempting to make the best of a bad situation, and the majority of the informed dune community needs to help in this effort. Somehow we need to get on the same page.

--Mike

[quote]... Brian, do you really believe that DUNERS has that much power or influence? Do you really believe that DUNERS is "activly working with the BLM in administering, enforcing and otherwise supporting" this new increase"? ...[/quote]

I don't believe that DUNERS has that much power or influence. I do however believe in influence.

This past year I have attended 3 "group" meetings with the BLM and 2 contacts by myself. I must say that each time the BLM representitives were open to what was said. At the same time, there was no misunderstanding that, in the end, the BLM would make their decision.

Two of the "group" meetings were with the BLM El Centro office, one of which was a TRT meeting. It is my understanding that the TRT holds an officially recognized advisory position with the BLM El Cento office. In that meeting the TRT expressed their extreme displeasure of an item on the agenda (not related to this topic) with the BLM in full aknowledgement that the TRT's displeasure would not affect the BLM's actions. The TRT gave their opinion and the BLM made their decision.

Another "group" meeting/conf call with the BLM was a followup of a suggestion made during a TRT meeting concerning the distibution of flyers saying that the closures were still in effect. It was with members of ASA, DUNERS (Vicki & Chuck were on the phone), the Desert Advisory Council (I think thats right), and a green rep from Imperial Valley (don't recall affiliation). The BLM needed "our" help and the tone of the meeting was different. Not worse, not better, just different.

The contacts I have had by myself have been good. I got information, shared my views, and discussed things. The communication was 2-way. Maybe these contacts made with the BLM people made a difference in what they thought, maybe they didn't. I don't know, but I hope they did.

The bottom line is that good or bad, worse or better, WE need to have a raport with the BLM. They may be ABLE to act on our advice, they may NOT be able to. They may choose to JUST NOT act on our advice. We do need a voice and right now, and unless I am wrong, the only group in an official advisory position with the BLM is the TRT and they are looking for some new seats in August.

We all have a voice; by ourself, with DUNERS, ASA, or whoever.
SPEAK IT!

Sorry for the length.

[quote]Somehow we need to get on the same page.[/quote]

A good start would be no more name calling

[quote]Tom-- you say that cutting costs is a "pipe dream" and Oldtimer above says that that cutting costs is exactly what DUNERS is trying to do. [/quote]

Both are correct, in that Tom was responding to Brian's specific laundry list of cutbacks (which seem too broad and numerous to be instituted) and Oldtimer was referring to helping the BLM find solutions that are cost effective.

It's easy to take things out of context in a thread like this, but it's not really fair to anyone, not the participants or the new reader. That's not a jab at you Mike, just a comment to hopefully keep it from happening too much.

And of course many of the comments are being taken personally, and there's no way to deny that some have been intended to be taken personally.

We're all human and it's hard to stay calm and objective during discussions that involve something to near and dear to all of us. Although we do try, a personal reaction is bound to slip through now and again.

DUNERS' leadership is a little different from most organizations, in our makeup and our methods. That's not by accident. We feel very strongly that information that involves a land management agency should be made available to the public and right now that means the BLM and in particular the business plan. We also believe that the public has the right (perhaps even obligation) to help guide these management agencies, which in our case is the BLM.

And since DUNERS made the decision to get out as much information as possible, DUNERS is of course to blame for the message.

That's fine too, as long as the word still gets out and there aren't a lot of surprises come October 8)

Vicki

THIS WAS REMOVED BY THE POSTER.

Vicky if you don't mind my asking....exactly how many members are there in DUNERS?


DEEPSAND

[quote]Vicky if you don't mind my asking....exactly how many members are there in DUNERS?


DEEPSAND[/quote]

I haven't stopped to check for a while now... back at the beginning of June it was around 75, but we've added some since then. Still slightly under 100 I think.

Vicki