Ok, many have stated that if the LEOs went in and yanked out the roots of the problems at the hills then there'd be no need to cut the whole tree down... I agree with this. Many also agree/acknowlege/accept that at some point... like when the rows get blurred and it may be unsafe for a LE to go in and remove the problem.

All comments to date into account...

1. WHAT can Joe Duner at the hill do to help a UA from being declared?

2. WHAT specific actions do you think LE should take to help prevent a UA from being declared?

3. WHAT specific actions not listed in the press release (if any) should Joe Duner take if a UA is declared?

1. Peer pressure to prevent the type of lawless behavior from occurring in the first place. People don't go out there alone, and if somebody can discourage the drunken craziness, everyone is safer and LE won't have any excuse to claim it's time for a UA.

2. Cruise thru the crowds more, keep a close tabs on those who fit the profile, keep somewhat of an open road cleared thru the rows. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

3. I can't think of any, just get out of the way and leave.

not sure how to prevent it, probably can't. Peer pressure will only start fights with the azzzwipes and the LE's will just start sooner clearing everyone out..

cruising the crowds may help at the begining, but then the same azzzzzwipes will just start throwing things at them, starting the clearing out sooner...

stay out of the way, you know they are going to start the clearing out sooner or later, its just a fact, like it or not...be ready to exit the area..

I completely disagree.


I know of several people who couldn't control their behavior when drunk, and they've since stopped drinking. Peer pressure helped them realize what they were doing to themselves and their friends.

If the cops cruise thru, the bad elements won't start their crap with a cop walking right by them. If the cops see anyone misbehaving, hook 'em up. That will help deter anyone else from starting any crap.


So you're saying the cops don't call a UA in response to any illegal activity, they do it just to do it. Even if there is no illegal activity, they're going to call a UA anyway?

You read too much between the lines...

How many people have you tried peer pressure on in the dunes, to stop drinking, at the hill or other places? Surely not the flatbillers that seem to start most of the problems causing the UA's..

The cops seem to keep their distance when the larger crowds start to show up. Why? They can not control the area in one or 2 man teams and can not watch their backs from one or 2 rows over. I agree with you about those not thowing things that they are walking by, but a couple of crowded rows over does not stopped the azzzwipes..

The cops call an UA for what ever reason, may not be illegal, just might be getting out of hand, heading in that direction. They are there to try and stop the illegal activities before it starts, my understanding, could be mistaken about that though...

1. WHAT can Joe Duner at the hill do to help a UA from being declared?
a. Dont be a dick.
b. obey the rules (laws).
c. obey the LEO's
d. inform people around them of the rules.

2. WHAT specific actions do you think LE should take to help prevent a UA from being declared?
a. set up a choke point early in the evening
b. pass out info at the checkpoint explaining the reasons, the rules, and the consequenses for a UA
c. cruise the pit aisles (in pairs) to maintain visibility, answer questions, maintain clear aisles, confront lawbreakers with a warning, and followup if required.

3. WHAT specific actions not listed in the press release (if any) should Joe Duner take if a UA is declared?
a. obey LEO's instructions

Agreed.

1 Don't confront the jerks one on one unless they seam like the understanding type, if not then report them to the LEO's, the LEO's should then park one of there trucks right in front of the asshats to let them know there being watched.

2 The LEO's should show there presents by patrolling the crowd in groups of 4 or 5 officers and the use of choke points at the entrance would be a good idea.

3 If a UA is called then leave the area as quickly as possible without delay (It's the law), but if you can't get you ride moving then you should be able to throw up your hands to let the LEO's know there is a problem and they should investigate before any use force is directed your way.

I wouldnt cruise the large drunken crowds. That is when you take bottles. Nobody can tell me it doesnt happen either.

What about the chokepoints? If they looked for glass or contraband, then let you continue in, like when you go to any sporting event, maybe that could cut down on the bottles. May scare off some off the riff raff too.

Wishful thinking I know, but makes sense to me...

Thanks for the info so far folks, keep it comin

1. WHAT can Joe Duner at the hill do to help a UA from being declared?
a. prolly nuthin, joe duner is not the cause of the problems

2. WHAT specific actions do you think LE should take to help prevent a UA from being declared?
a. cruise the pit aisles (in pairs) to maintain visibility, answer questions, maintain clear aisles, confront lawbreakers with a warning, and followup on the warned people to make sure they complied.

3. WHAT specific actions not listed in the press release (if any) should Joe Duner take if a UA is declared?
a. leave

I wholeheartedly agree with #3. People don't need to be gassed with chemical weapons because their ride broke down.

Im gonna add gas masks to my list of carried items................. Then I can just sit back and watch the people get gassed!

why are the leo's wrong? Yes, to most of us..they are handling it wrong...we get caught up in the situation....but...
I remember when Glamis....
didn't have shootings...
fireworks till 3am..
camp buzzards kicking dirt and being rude around camp...
loud, rude bikes fired up at 6am...they waited till 7am...
a-holes burning deserted vehicles...
vehicles stolen....
fighting with the cops...
tearing girls tops off...
stabbing people with broken flags....
digging trenches....
leaving trash...
I remember when people..or should I say...society had respect....for others around them..for the law....
my god...the cops are AFRAID if they have little numbers....AFRAID FOR THEIR LIVES....
it is sad how society has become....you wanna clean it up?
quit thinking about me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me.....
smack your rude kids..teach them respect...raise the future in a different direction.....
re-evaluate your own morales....
and you can start by giving a little on the highway....so what if the car merging wants to get on in front of you..let em...
I say stick with the UA...eventually all the A holes will leave...for good.....and I and you...can have our happy little sand box back....we can help each other again....we can enjoy our little piece of gods country...without fear...without arming ourselves at night....
Chargers are out..so I say....GO LEO'S......

Once again, you post stuff that is full of emotion and zero logic.


Sure, I agree that the world was a better place 10 yrs ago. Sure, I agree a lot of kids need ot be smacked and we should all be more courteous to one another.



Prove to me how LEOs calling a UA is going to give us back Glamis.

They're not arresting or even fining the criminals. So they didn't learn anything, they just come back to do it again.

I think they're going to use statistics and say "we've had to go to the extent of calling a UA in Glamis X number of times in the last 10 yrs, and it hasn't gotten any better, so let's just close this whole mess down."


Remember, calling a UA is should not be your FIRST choice, but your LAST RESORT. If the guy on the scene has called one, he's admitting that he doesn't think he can control the situation and he's throwing out the entire mob.

I don't think it's warranted based on what I've seen at Olds. Why should someone's laziness make it look like we're a lawless mob of criminals?



BTW, being a courteous driver on the fwy has no bearing whatsoever on whether the LEOs in Glamis actually do their jobs or act like meatheads. Just in case you were delusional enough to think that there might actually be some cosmic connection.

Just when I thought you were on the right track with your earlier post. You go and throw this line of crap out there. You just called the LEOs Lazy Meatheads because your (Non-Expert) opinion is they just take the easy way out by calling a UA.
Big Had has a valid point in his post. Just like you had valid answers in your earlier POST.
Before you go judging a job you obviously are not familiar with, try this. Get up one morning, pin on a badge and strap on a gun. Kiss your wife and kids good-bye and head off to work. In the back of your mind you will hope that you survive the day. You will soon realize you have no idea what the day has in store for you. Whether or not the people you are trying to help will turn on you. Whether or not the next door you walk through will be your last. You will have to smile when some nice citizen comes by and flips you the bird and calls you profane names just because you are just doing your job. If you respond to that behavior in the wrong way you know you will be called in and reprimanded all the while wishing you could complain to someone about that person's behavior.
After doing this a few times you will realize that survival is a key part of the LEOs job.

I'm sorry I got on a soap box and it is off topic, but you deserve it when you begin insulting other's professions.

I'm not insulting anyone's profession. If one person acts like a meathead, it certainly doesn't mean they are all meatheads.


I'm just pointing out that one's driving behavior on the fwy has no bearing on how you're going to be treated in Glamis by LEO.

There are good officers in Glamis (every one I've met has been very nice) and there are a few Barney Fifes. Just ask sandratt how he was treated in camp, even after he badged the guy.

Socal... Perhaps your level of educational attainment prevents your ability to think so wide? Don't get frustrated by this...just put me on ignore....no need to tailgate my every post little brother.....

I too have been treated not so nice and when I badged the Ranger he scoffed at me and said we are the worst offenders, which really ticked me off.
Most of your posts I read on this subject give me the impression you are Anti-Authority. You think cops can just walk through large often drunken crowds like they have an invisible shield around them. Then identify and drag out an offender, hoping the crowd will not throw bottles or attack them.
I will tell you the Law Enforcement Agencies in the dunes are looking for other solutions. One of the problems is the Man Power they have out there is all they and cover is from a distance. They are trying to incorporate the help from other agencies including San Diego County but budgets do not allow for it.

The people causing the problems use the crowd (People not doing things wrong) to shield themselves from the LEO. Haven't you noticed this?? Next time you and your group find yourself next to a group of trouble makers, try to make them feel uncomfortable. I am not saying get into a fight. I am saying separate yourselves from them by about 10 feet. Then watch what they do. Suddenly they will realize they are exposed and will try to hide again. If you separate from them it will make it easier for the LEO to spot them.

I have seen this.
I have also seen a large icrease to where the idiots are 50% of the crowd now.
Some of my riding friends now won't go to the busy spots.

So when I do go to spectate....I hang off to the side or don't stick around very long.

I hope this issue gets better.

The only problem with this post is none of this is even going on anymore, not even close! And the UA are still called.

A UA should be the last resort, but now its called because a few folks dont want anything going on at any hill.

Some of us have lived at these hills at night for 24 plus years, and yes one time it was better, then it had a rave feel (not so safe) and then it was stomped out. Now its silly mellow and border line gay,(disney) the leo's know this and the A$A does to, but they continue to treat it like a problem, which its not.

Money, stats, bragging rights, keep your minds off what is still closed, etc....

UA, what a joke.

you guys have my total respect........

Socal...once again you strive to be smarter than everyone....
so many complaints..tell me..what do you...complaining about it..what do you do to make it better? Computer smack talk others? Strive to insult others?
what are you doing to make corrections to the problem....I am ignorant....ignorant of whiners crying about how the police act....where do you live? they react....there is a difference.....and if you don't like the reaction....then fix the action causing it....
but crying about the leos behavior isn't doing anything....

big had, yes you are ignorant, in addition to being the biggest whiner on this entire board.

I think that they should shut down the road into olds and if ya cant dune in then ya dont get in. Yes some people will not be able to get to olds who are NOT part of the problem but in all battles there are some losses and if means keeping the dunes open and less ammo for the enviro wackos I am for it!!!

Before you decide that your job is more dangerous than someone else's you should be aware that there are plenty of people who have had jobs as dangerous or more so than yours.

In the 10 yrs I was in the US Sub force, I still can't tell you where we went or what we did. I couldn't tell other crew members either, even though they were there, they weren't allowed to know for security reasons. Some areas onboard were restricted to prevent you from getting too much radiation from the reactor or the "special weapons" on board.

Try guarding special weapons. You're armed with a loaded and c0cked Rem. 870 in your hands, authorized to use deadly force against everyone - all civilians, all crewmembers including the Captain, if the security perimeter or any security protocol is breached - only 1 verbal warning, then shoot to kill. Imagine being told you may have to shoot your co-worker or best buddy you just ate lunch with. Ever considered shooting a fellow officer in a split second? Almost incomprehensible to most people.

Just like having a button that launches Tomahawks. Push it and an entire building full of people get vaporized. Don't hesitate, or dwell on that too much. It's just your job. A job we did at sea 270-320 days a year.

That's right, we didn't get to kiss our wives or kids goodbye every morning, much less come home at night. Mail? We got that whenever we hit port. Usually once a month, sometimes 90 days later. Sometimes we didn't sleep for 2 or 3 days, we stayed up all night doing drills practicing fighting fires, saving the ship, damage control, killing anyone who crossed the perimeter.

If the claustrophobia didn't get you, perhaps the sleep deprivation, or the knowledge that your wife was going broke while you were 5,000 mi away and powerless to help her while doing specops somewhere that if captured, you weren't coming back. Then maybe the knowledge that the entire ship was rigged to blow if captured would bother you a little. That's right, the Navy knows the strongest man will tell everything if you hold a gun to his buddy's head, so in order to preserve national security, you won't ever get put in that position. If the ship is captured, the entie crew is destroyed with the ship.

I could go on, but I doubt the thought of cruising under the sea at depths beyond survivability at a whopping $2,500 a month salary ( --- that's right, nooooo overtime, ever) appeals to a lot of people.

Sorry to ramble, but I thought you might like to know that there are some tough jobs out there, and they include poverty, being away from home most of the time, poor living conditions, working 15 on, 9 off, sleep deprivation, isolation, death by drowning, fire, shooting or explosion, and that doesn't include enemy action.

In retrospect, I would have loved to earn overtime while carrying a gun, baton, pepperballs and a shield. Dodging rocks and bottles are kind of a minor annoyance compared to what a large number of our servicemembers go through.

I'm not belittling anyone's profession, just putting things in perspective. Honestly, would you like to trade jobs?

so who's crying about the UA and everything else that isn't their way?
Ignorance is so easy to see when people put it in print....that's educated Steve....boo-hoo..the cops pick on us...boo-hoo..they are lazy that's why they do it...boo-hoo..big had is a whiner...wow....
look at who looks like the whiner...grow up.....can you get through the day without having issues with someone or something that isn't your style?
let's get back on topic..

Steve, I did 21 years in the service and I saw some stuff!

Would I change places with these guys who wear a badge..............HELL NO!
These guys face the worst possible situations involving the worst possible people every hour of everyday that they are in uniform, and every one of them has the ability to turn on them at any second. They can't afford to trust ANYONE!

90% of the people these guys contact on a daily basis are on the wrong side of the law, and they aren't happy to see a cop right then and there.

Do a ride along sometime Steve, I know a young CHP officer who might open your eyes in just one shift.

I've offered to do a ride along in Glamis. I'd like to see first hand just how bad it is and when the order is given to clear the hill.

A for jobs, yes I think they have a tough job, but I don't think it's the only tough job, nor do I think one needs to do a particular job in order to come up with constructive ideas to do it a little better.

I spent some time talking to an on duty LEO at the hill a couple weeks ago about this UA thing.
Mind you this guy is a duner and spends his off-duty time in Glamis just like the rest of us.

A couple things stuck in my mind that he talked about.

Number one, these guys shifts don't end, on a big weekend until after 2am, so any talk about closing the hill at or before the end of shift is BS. Each time I've seen it closed was between 10 pm and midnight.

Number two, mind you this guy has been a Glamis duner longer than he has been a LEO, so he remembered the BAD old days. He said the biggest improvement he has seen at Olds has been since the stricter enforcement of the "No riders in the back of pickup trucks". His comment was that folks who come to Glamis to dune don't normally truck into the hill at night. Nor do they pack pallets to burn, or huge coolers, or TV sets and other trash to leave at the hill. Strict enforcement of the no riders in the back of pickup trucks, simply reduced the shear number of people who were at the hill "just to party" and raise hell, as well as reducing the amount of trash that these trucks haul in and don't haul out.

I think Hoverman is right on with the NO TRUCKS, unless they dune in rule. Close the road and I'll bet you will never have another UA called. If that is what it takes, Get it Done!

I agree, but it helps if you have some idea of what you are talking about.
Experience will do that for you...................

I've been espousing a roadblock/sobriety checkpoint at Olds road since before this discussion began. I've been maintaining that anybody who drives in with a truck is there just to party, and if you look at the people, it's easy to profile who the troublemakers are and go thru coolers and confiscate bottles and hand out tickets for them.


But since I don't wear a badge or strap on a gun, it looks like my suggestions aren't worthy of merit.

Sure, but it's not always necessary. I don't have to jump the Olds Double to see that it's dangerous.

In this instance, you're now agreeing with the roadblock idea, which I've been saying all along. If they kept the riffraff out with that, there wouldn't be any need to call UAs after all.

I agree with you 100% on the roadblock idea.

I tend to disagree with any solution that puts any Officer at any greater risk than necessary.
One other thing the Leo I spoke with mentioned, and I have seen it first hand. These UA's, in his opinion are never called until there has been a fight, reports of objects thrown AND there is a very large grouping of people in a single area, as in fifty to a hundred people around a single fire.

I like the baton and mace approach..they warn ya to leave...I just think too many people live in a "second chance" life....and expect there not to be outcomes shortly after the warning....I really don't get the sitting around part..the "nobody gonna tell me what to do" part.....is gonna get far...
it has been my observations that the LEO's pretty much leave all of us alone...they allow the drags...they allow olds during the day...what element changes at night? why do they declare UA's sometimes?
were not on their radios..were not processing the info they get/see with all their combined eyes working together...
heck..truth be told..sitting at camp on any given night or out at the hill..laws are constantly being broken....they aren't zapping everyone..they are focusing on the major issues....
perhaps when you become the victim of..let's say a mob torching your buggy...beating you...then this topic would turn 180 degrees...it would be the "cops don't do their jobs" bitchfest...
we can't have it both ways...
I'll give and side with the more "keeping things under control" tactics....
it has been my experience that soo many people think they have the right to know what is going on..even in business that doesn't include them..and they don't need to know....common sense..that's the key for me...common sense...to know when I am drawing attention to myself....when I am in a situation that is no good...etc.
I maintain the attitude that I support the police in Glamis..they have done an excellent job of bringing down the issues of 4 years ago....keep up the good work gents...

I have seen many posts on here where you complain about others putting words in your mouth/posts. Guess it's the Pot/Kettle story.
Do you really think the LEO's have not looked for other solutions??
Do you really think Law Enforcement does not gather intelligence and constantly evaluate their strategies??
Do you really think Law Enforcement does not consider everyone's Safety??

If you answer "Yes" to any of the above, then you do not have a clue.

Regarding your suggestions of PROFILING. If you had any clue in the field of Law Enforcement you would know it is Unconstitutional (ACLU) and numerous Officers have been sued.

thats correct...we cannot ban things that we don't have an interest in...banning trucks that are capable of getting there is wrong..although it wouldn't bother me if they did...but I do not support going after someone because they are driving a truck....heck..what about all you buggy guys needing to tow your buggies outta there...think about that????

Again, bh, you entirely miss the point.


I'm not interested in banning anyone, especially since it appears I'm not interested in trucks. That's not how my mind operates. From what I have observed, the vsst majority of troublemakes get to Olds in trucks or in the back of trucks.

If you don't believe me, reference Ezrider's post where he recounts his conversation with an LEO who works in Glamis.


"His comment was that folks who come to Glamis to dune don't normally truck into the hill at night. Nor do they pack pallets to burn, or huge coolers, or TV sets and other trash to leave at the hill. Strict enforcement of the no riders in the back of pickup trucks, simply reduced the shear number of people who were at the hill "just to party" and raise hell, as well as reducing the amount of trash that these trucks haul in and don't haul out."


Now I am on board with that. Anything to help reduce the numbers of idiots who just come out there to party and who leave the bulk of the trash. There is pretty much 1 source of most of the problems, and it's easily identifiable.

I've bolded the appropriate word, in case you missed it.

Here is a pic of military assets (possibly National Guard?) being used to close the hill.






Now you can't just call these guys up and have them deliver humvees in 30 minutes, like pizza. It doesn't work that way. You have to plan it for days, possibly weeks in advance to get all 47 layers of paper shufflers to sign off on it.


Further proof that clearing the hill is a decision made days, if not weeks, before the actual night in question.

but I'm open to hearing any evidence that the hill got out of hand and these guys showed up at the snap of a finger, or were just passing by and decided to lend a hand, or whatever.

A couple problems here. I understand (and agree with) where you're headed, but we need to make sure the baby doesn't get thrown out with the grey water

First off, you can't legally restrict Olds to just non-street-registered vehicles, without doing the same to all of Glamis. You can set up a checkpoint to check driver sobriety, vehicle/driver licenses, and compliance with the CVC (all good ideas, IMHO) but you can't just turn them away. If they're willing to endure the wait to pass the checkpoint, then they have every legal right to head to the hill.

Second, IIRC you need either driver's consent or legal probable cause to search a vehicle beyond what is in plain view. Or a warrant, but that scenario is highly unlikely. I'm sure there are ways around that, maybe the LEOs here could address it, but that's the law in a nutshell. And again, you can't just target trucks... buggies, quads, bikes, or Danny-boy and his intrepid band of dune hikers could all be carrying contraband.

Also, while glass bottles may be illegal, shovels and gas cans are not. Ditto wood. (I don't know that pallets could be considered contraband until they're out of the truck and on the fire, otherwise aren't they just cargo? I could be wrong on that...) And unfortunately, there's no law against stupidity.

I fully support increased enforcement at Olds. I think it can be done in such a way that UAs would be a tool of last resort. Set up a checkpoint, back Sand Highway up to the 78 while looking for drunks, vehicle-code and ISDRA violations, minors past curfew, yada yada yada. Make it tough for the riffraff to get there, they'll go elsewhere or stay in camp. I don't think it's a magic bullet but it's a step in the right direction.

My $.02...

No I am not opposed to the idea of a Road Block and truthfully I am not opposed to SOME of your other ideas. You have developed quite a conversation on this issue as evidence by 3 different threads. You are taking my responses as opposition. What I have been trying to do is give you some Expert opinion as to why some of your ideas wont work or are not SAFE.
Yes I will admit some LEOs have 'Wyatt Earp' syndrome and I would bet their Supervisors know who they are. I doubt if these are the ones calling for the UA. (I am sure you will disagree.)
Law Enforcement is much more intelligent than you are giving credit for.

Regarding arbitrarily searching vehicles before they enter: Have you ever heard of the FOURTH AMENDMENT??

Steve that picture of the Humvee was not taken at the hill.
I was there, and it was taken at the drags at least four or five years ago. I have NEVER seen military vehicles or personnel in uniform at Glamis since that single time.

As far as the roadblock, I'm not saying search anyone, or single out trucks.
I'm saying block the road to EVERYONE! Quads, motorcycles, buggies, jeeps, and yes, trucks too. Everyone who can go around will dune in. Those who can't won't................and you will greatly reduce the number of trucks by doing so.