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Eff. Pmv Remains Listed

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It's never been about the plant? Then why all the cash spent on counting them?

Oh, c’mon now, Mike, don’t you KNOW??? I’d thought you’d had it figured by now. The ASA et all has got absolutely NOTHING better to do then to waste tons of money.

Their real goal is to give guys like you something to throw barbs at.

It’s nice to see that you are still with the program. I was beginning to think that everyone’s hard work was for naught.

Thanks for your support. Without you to kick us in the balls, at every chance, why, we’d have no reason to continue.

yikes, where is the love?

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Although initially a good idea, the only real way to settle this issue is a legislative approach. I've said this for many years.

The time has come and gone to get Congress involved at a legislative approach. Way back in the day when we had a friendly Congress (and especially a friendly Committee Chair) and a Executive Branch who could work with us, we had a real chance to "get r done".

Now we are faced with more and more litigation Likely a losing cause once again.

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Unfortunately, even if the ASA were sucessful with the petition it would have met the same fate as the Gray Wolf delisting...

Gray Wolf News

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Not to mention that the PMV would have remained listed as endangered on the California list (it's only 'threatened' on the federal list) and since Glamis is in California, well...

I am really sorry to see the ire raised in this forum every time someone has the audacity to voice a dissenting opinion. Progress comes with open discussion, a free exchange of opinions, even when they're 'indelicate.'

We have... no progress.

I know... shhhhhhhhh

Vicki :wub:

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Frankie:

Mike, whether you agree with the ASA or not, love them or hate them, given the fact that their heart and soul was put into the delisting effort, the pain and anguish that they are feeling deserves better than a sarcastic remark.

Heart and soul was no doubt put into it. But when you read the press release and read “and off-roaders have spent millions of dollars and countless volunteer hours trying to prove the plant is flourishing” , and an ASA guy comes in and says it was never about the plant it was about money and power, I can’t help but ask what I did.

If it’s about power, buy a politician and the general public like the other side does. I am sure there are other ways, but no I do not have the answers. If it was me, I’d play dirty like they do. Crazy idea #1; since the greens bamboozle the public with their version of facts, how about spend those millions on TV commercials that show a field of PMV’s and claim there are 200 million seeds in that scene along with 1 million blooming PMV’s. Claim offroad exhaust shades these seeds from the sun thus making them flourish. Then claim that leaky VW’s promote PMV growth just as well as rain fall which is infrequent in the desert. See where I am going here? If not see quote below about rule number 1.

I admit I am reaching with these 2 quotes. But when I read them one thought came to my mind:

Rule #1

People are stupid!

They will believe any lie either because they're afraid it is true or they want it to be.

That said, there's a fall back position for the mean time. Once we've had an opportunity to go over it with our attorney and it is decided we carry through with it, we'll be more than happy to share - no sense in tipping our hand here. But you all have to know its not as pretty as a delisting would have been.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet.

I read these as “Be quiet and keep sending donations”.

That’s what the greens do to! The majority of their millions of members are quiet and keep sending donations because they are fed the greens version of facts. With the ASA’s now 33,000 (approx) members sending donations and we see no land opened it makes me, and I know others, wonder. Granted most of the others keep quiet where as I

kick us in the balls every chance I get
.

With millions spent, no land opened, and no court cases won something drastic should change within the ASA. Whether it’s the governing body, the legal representation, or just the method of attack.

No I could not do a better job, no I don’t have the answers, and yes I have done ‘stuff’ to help the cause.

ASA-did you and other org’s really spend ‘millions’ on the plant count? Millions to me is at least 2 million or more. Did you really spend that much like it says in your press release?

Take this post however you feel you need to. I am sure most will see it as a slam. It was from the heart, as ultimately I want what most duners want. I am sure I will be slammed for expressing my opinions.

P.S. For the record I don’t kick the ASA in the balls every chance I get, I have hit the back button many times and not commented.

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Well said Mike. Obviously it was a done deal with the FWS and there was never going to be a delisting. It doesn't matter how much money the ASA spends the Greenies are going to win because for every dollar the ASA raises the greenies will raise 10X that.

Even with the science proving its not endangered it is still endangered. This did not surprise me in the least. I had hope it would get overturned but again, we don't own the politicians and the FWS people. We never will, we don't raise the kind of money to pay the bribes they demand.

Did the ASA make a difference? Yeah it did. Did it go about it in the right fashion? not looking like it, but I think it was doomed from the start.

At the very least ASA raised awareness for all of the duners, at the low point a few people made some money off the deal. *shrug* That's going to happen in *any* organization when "millions" of dollars are being spread around. That's just a fact of life.

Just my opinion, I'm just a dumb rusty Oregonian, I wouldn't know about all the SoCal peoples ways... :)

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Well said Mike. Obviously it was a done deal with the FWS and there was never going to be a delisting. It doesn't matter how much money the ASA spends the Greenies are going to win because for every dollar the ASA raises the greenies will raise 10X that.

Even with the science proving its not endangered it is still endangered. This did not surprise me in the least. I had hope it would get overturned but again, we don't own the politicians and the FWS people. We never will, we don't raise the kind of money to pay the bribes they demand.

Did the ASA make a difference? Yeah it did. Did it go about it in the right fashion? not looking like it, but I think it was doomed from the start.

At the very least ASA raised awareness for all of the duners, at the low point a few people made some money off the deal. *shrug* That's going to happen in *any* organization when "millions" of dollars are being spread around. That's just a fact of life.

Just my opinion, I'm just a dumb rusty Oregonian, I wouldn't know about all the SoCal peoples ways... :)

Jaybo it seems you can't figure out just how you want to blame the ASA for the delisting loss. First it's "we don't raise the kind of money to pay the bribes they demand", then it's "Did it go about it in the right fashion? not looking like it". Well which is it? If the ASA had the money you say it would take to simply buy the politicians then I doubt there is any "wrong fashion" that would derail our mission. If we did it in better "fashion" but without enough cash then we wouldn't have the purchased gavels or big office types required in your earlier statement to fulfill our win. Why can't you just face the facts that the courts won't recognize science as presented by off-roaders?

Edited by ChuckZilla

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Jaybo it seems you can't figure out just how you want to blame the ASA for the delisting loss. First it's "we don't raise the kind of money to pay the bribes they demand", then it's "Did it go about it in the right fashion? not looking like it". Well which is it? If the ASA had the money you say it would take to simply buy the politicians then I doubt there is any "wrong fashion" that would derail our mission. If we did it in better "fashion" but without enough cash then we wouldn't have the purchased gavels or big office types required in your earlier statement to fulfill our win. Why can't you just face the facts that the courts won't recognize science as presented by off-roaders?

I'm NOT blaming the ASA for the delisting loss. I'm just pointing out that it was in the cards from the start. There is way too much money and power on the greenies side for the ASA to likely overcome. I don't have the answer either, but If we sue, and even if we win, the greenies with their unlimited amount of money will get it overturned again. They won't stop. Ever. The Supreme court would never hear such a lowly case as the PMV so we are stuck in legal limbo forever. Our Judicial system is totally corrupt on so many levels that us peons don't have a chance.

If by some chance in hell we were to win, they will just bring out some other weed/bug/cause that will make us start from the ground up once again, spending millions of dollars and years and years of time. Like Mike, I think we need to take a different approach, not sure what it is, or if whatever it is would make a difference, but we don't seem to have gained any ground from where we started with the current approach.

All I am saying is it may be time for a fresh new look at the whole situation.

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I thought this might be a good time for me to put in my two cents. I am a civil engineer and I deal with the Fish and Wildlife on a daily basis. And every day I see our lands and water being stolen from us under the high and mighty cause of “saving the environment”. It makes me physically sick to see how individual landowner rights are being trampled on. I was asked to be involved in the ASA when it was initially created (because I am passionate about Glamis) and I declined because I knew based on my daily experience that this situation will only get worse!!!!! Yes, I said it, and I’m really sorry to report that I was right.

That does not mean we should not try. We have to do the science, it's really all we have to support our position. I know it seems like a waste of time but it's all we have.

Your anger and spite is misdirected towards the ASA!!! It is not their fault; “without the ASA the dunes would be closed”. The only reason we have any dunes is because the ASA. The environmentalist have not been happy with the current closure and have put forth several tactics to try and close the remaining portion of the dunes. They almost succeeded!!!!!

I’m sorry to give everyone the bad news but in my 35 years in development I have only seen things get worse with the land grabs that are happening to developers. You want to develop your 1500 acres? Give F&W 1200 acres as open space and maybe we will let you develop the remaining 300 acres (but even that will take 3 years). The developer says what the F___ you can’t just take my land and not pay me for it!!!!!! Huh? What country do I live in? They just smile and give you that creepy feeling like you need to protect your anus. Then they say well if you want to develop it, this is the only way we are going to allow it.

We all want to find blame but how about directing your anger at the politicians who perpetuate these policies. We have a very difficult task of changing the mindset of our politicians. We need to direct our energy towards that end as this is not a scientific fight. It is purely a political fight and we are clearly out gunned.

This will not change until we as a society put people first instead of weeds and fish!

PS to Vicki – Dissenting voice is one thing but all you and your organization do is spew criticism on to the ASA. How about contributing something other than blame!!!! I don’t see DUNERS announcing how they got the closures rescinded. Didn’t you create the DUNERS organization to show the ASA how it’s done? Where are your results?

It’s real easy to sit back and play Monday morning quarterback. How about asking how you can help instead of telling everyone how you would have handled it differently!!!!!!!!

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Turn and Burn, I don’t know who you are but your comments are incorrect and misguided. Understandable... it's easier to listen to lies than question the facts.

DUNERS was never formed to show anyone "how it's done." DUNERS was formed, initially, to support the ASA. People who wanted to take a hard-line approach to the situation, and most likely a less politically-correct approach, formed DUNERS. One of the primary focus points was to use less-than-warm-and-fuzzy methods to raise money to supplement the ASA’s legal battles.

Is DUNERS a viable organization now? Nope. And the reasons for that would cause such a firestorm here that even less would get done than is being done now in the fight for the dunes. That truly is the mother of all diversion tactics and one that I will no longer engage in. And besides... wouldn't it be dandy to see some proactive discussions, instead of the usual slight-of-hand attacks used to divert unwanted attention from the ASA?

The leaders of the ASA know (if they don't, they should) that when they placed themselves and their organization into positions of influence and power, they would have to take the good with the bad, and that includes public scrutiny and sometimes criticism. I would like to see such things answered with facts and data, instead of with "I know you are but what am I responses" such as "I don't see DUNERS announcing how they got the closures rescinded. Didn't you create the DUNERS organization to show the ASA how it's done? Where are your results?"

I have been extremely silent, absent from this board and others, for quite some time now. I’ve watched court battle after court battle, big and small, get lost. I've kept my questions to myself, misgivings, and outright WTF? responses off the public boards for I don’t know how long.

And still, as soon as anyone dares to dissent (it wasn’t even me this time!), my name and the organization I helped start, gets thrown under the bus. Incredible.

But extremely typical. The smoke and mirror trick is alive and well.

Vicki

Edited by SailAway

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Hey, we tried something at least.

If anyone has any better ideas on how to get the tem. closures lifted, speak up!

There are no better ideas than getting it delisted. That shot had to be taken first. There's no law against generating more data and doing it over and over and over no matter how long it takes.

That said, there's a fall back position for the mean time. Once we've had an opportunity to go over it with our attorney and it is decided we carry through with it, we'll be more than happy to share - no sense in tipping our hand here. But you all have to know its not as pretty as a delisting would have been.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet.

Can we get a time frame of when we can hear of your new plan?

Praying it involves at a min of status quo. (sp?)

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Mike330R,

When I said "People are stupid" I was referring to "those" people that believe in shit like human-caused global warming, that the ESA is a good thing, etc. Never was meant to "shut up." I was insulting our opposition.

When I said it wasn't about the plants anyhow.....

Come on now! You've been around long enough to know that the SC, CBD, PEER, et.al. don't give a flyin' dead rats ass about anything but money and power for themselves. That is what it's all about. They win a case, they get reimbursed from the govmint (you and me), they broadcast it and get more members that are willing to pay more money to feel good about what they do, that's more money, they get more money and help get eff*in' bitches like Pelosi elected and people like Pombo defeated, they further their cause, more power, more money.

Say what you want, criticize, I don't give a eff*.

I'm going to continue the fight. You should too.

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Now I wish I had let it go...it wasn't my intent to start another mindless pissing contest. I just felt that Mike's sarcasm was unwarranted at this particular time. That's it. Nothing else. No drama intended. It was my personal take on the timing of the comment.

I should have known better.

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Nice to see Oldtimer here.......

This decision sucks, but not a surprise. We need McCain bad, he at least knows the region.

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McCain is in bed with the greenies as much as Obama and Governor Shriver.

This election is a "lose lose" situation.

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I thought this might be a good time for me to put in my two cents. I am a civil engineer and I deal with the Fish and Wildlife on a daily basis. And every day I see our lands and water being stolen from us under the high and mighty cause of “saving the environment”. It makes me physically sick to see how individual landowner rights are being trampled on. I was asked to be involved in the ASA when it was initially created (because I am passionate about Glamis) and I declined because I knew based on my daily experience that this situation will only get worse!!!!! Yes, I said it, and I’m really sorry to report that I was right.

That does not mean we should not try. We have to do the science, it's really all we have to support our position. I know it seems like a waste of time but it's all we have.

Your anger and spite is misdirected towards the ASA!!! It is not their fault; “without the ASA the dunes would be closed”. The only reason we have any dunes is because the ASA. The environmentalist have not been happy with the current closure and have put forth several tactics to try and close the remaining portion of the dunes. They almost succeeded!!!!!

I’m sorry to give everyone the bad news but in my 35 years in development I have only seen things get worse with the land grabs that are happening to developers. You want to develop your 1500 acres? Give F&W 1200 acres as open space and maybe we will let you develop the remaining 300 acres (but even that will take 3 years). The developer says what the F___ you can’t just take my land and not pay me for it!!!!!! Huh? What country do I live in? They just smile and give you that creepy feeling like you need to protect your anus. Then they say well if you want to develop it, this is the only way we are going to allow it.

We all want to find blame but how about directing your anger at the politicians who perpetuate these policies. We have a very difficult task of changing the mindset of our politicians. We need to direct our energy towards that end as this is not a scientific fight. It is purely a political fight and we are clearly out gunned.

This will not change until we as a society put people first instead of weeds and fish!

PS to Vicki – Dissenting voice is one thing but all you and your organization do is spew criticism on to the ASA. How about contributing something other than blame!!!! I don’t see DUNERS announcing how they got the closures rescinded. Didn’t you create the DUNERS organization to show the ASA how it’s done? Where are your results?

It’s real easy to sit back and play Monday morning quarterback. How about asking how you can help instead of telling everyone how you would have handled it differently!!!!!!!!

Please enlighten us on this statement. Maybe one of the ASA folks can clear this one up.

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Now I wish I had let it go...it wasn't my intent to start another mindless pissing contest.

Frankie: You intent here was admirable. Nothing wrong with what you said. Mike deserves his opinion and you do too. :yay:

I guess what grips me more than anything else is the very early days of Glamisonline and all the crap some in what became ASA gave the existing OHV leadership about the issue we all face at the ISDRA. Some went on and on about how our leadership failed us and didn't know what the heck they were doing.

Now, seven years or so later, we are still faced with essentially the same issue(s) at the ISDRA - closure.

ASA has made some good efforts overall, but has still failed in its primary goal of getting the dunes re-opened to any degree.

Now, will all the complexities our new "OHV leadership" have undergone with this effort, we all can see that the leadership of the day were not a sleep at the switch; but rather were presented with a new tactic and administration who essentially colluded with the eventual plaintiff to allow this closure to happen.

If some of those who were so critical in the day of the leadership now would come on this forum and retract what was said, I for one would be satisified and less likely to be critical of ASA.

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Typical of a thread that could've been good.

Now it's gone to bullshit.

I'm done here. I won't wrestle with pigs.

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Typical of a thread that could've been good.

Now it's gone to bullshit.

I'm done here. I won't wrestle with pigs.

:rotf:

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Typical of a thread that could've been good.

Now it's gone to bullshit.

I'm done here. I won't wrestle with pigs.

I don't get it. People (not just Mike) Point out that perhaps we may need to take a fresh look at what works and what doesn't, and you cal it pig wrestling. Would you just prefer we all act like lemmings and never question anything? You wonder why people get upset with the ASA and this is a perfect example.

"Oh no, someone insulted me/questioned my motives/asked why so I'm storming off and taking my toys with me so screw you! Oh yeah and you're a stupid pig too"

CLASSIC.

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Now I wish I had let it go...it wasn't my intent to start another mindless pissing contest. I just felt that Mike's sarcasm was unwarranted at this particular time. That's it. Nothing else. No drama intended. It was my personal take on the timing of the comment.

I should have known better.

I really didn't take Mike's question as a sarcastic jab as some people here apparently have.

How one interprets written comments depends on one's frame of mind. If one feels he has failed in some way, then he is of course going to take even neutral questions as some sort of attack.

What is disheartening to see is that someone cannot ask a simple question like that without all of the negative backlash.

If it truly was never really about the plant, and millions have been spent on science to prove the plant is not endangered, then I think it would be prudent to explain WHY the money was spent on such a fruitless endeavor, rather than attacking the person who asked the question.

One thing I try to do in an internet forum is stay focused on the message, regardless of the possibility thatthey might be personal attacks or thinly veiled insults. Rise above it and just answer the question. It certainly helps with one's credibility and perceived maturity.

Now back to the PMV and the ESA.

Would it be easier to try to redefine the ESA, or get it changed to have provisions that acknowledge that some plants and species are of no importance in the ecosystem and therefore serve no useful purpose?

I'm disappointed that millions have been spent, and that the decision was not in our favor. Is there some sort of tactic in the works that is going to attack this problem from a different angle, or a new strategy that migh be successful for a change?

After all, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results IS the definition of insanity.

Edited by socaldmax

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Typical of a thread that could've been good.

Now it's gone to bullshit.

I'm done here. I won't wrestle with pigs.

Why?

Just because somebody asked a question and you got your sensitive little feelers hurt?

Grow up. :lol:

As long as you somehow hold yourself in higher regard than others and consider other people "pigs", you have nothing useful to contribute.

This is a discussion forum. be ready to discuss and explain your position, or go sit in the corner.

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i know the answer. but no one is ready for it yet.

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Here's my answer.

We have a couple of our own chopper pilots spray the entire ISDRA with Agent Orange and eradicate all foliage in the dunes. Bingo! Nothing there, nothing to protect. You can't bring a species back from extinction.

Hey, if Agent Orange was good enough to spray on our own servicemen, it's good enough for the PMV.

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Eradicate the greenies. It'd make ya feel a WHOLE lot better :):explode::copper::9mm:

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