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Racerngr1

Sandrail in the whoops

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Wheelies and pounding through the whoops each cost around $1 a foot. The Mendi 2D is fine doing either. As others have said your suspension set up is key. You can spend all the cash you want on a trans axle / motor but if you can't get the power to the ground it's a waste of money.

Before you give up spend the money on getting your car suspension tuned. Most people have no idea what their car is capable of and tend to adapt to the way their car handles instead of making the car handle the way they want.

Suspension tuning done by a professional is not cheap. Depending on your current shock set up you could be looking at $500 - $1000. Because of the price and hassle of making an appointment / meeting the tuner out in the dunes / desert I went 5 buggies without having the tuning done. The last three buggies were all tuned by Ed (Poundsand here on the board). I can't say enough about how well that money was spent on shock tuning. If I had limited funds I'd do the tuning before any motor / trans mods.

There are some good peeps that provide the tuning service, previously I mentioned Ed, Tyler also comes to mind. If you search the Sand Rail forums using "Shock tuning" you should be able to make an informed decision. You may have the right car and just not know it. 

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keep in mind that a bigger, heavier car won't necessarily be faster. my light tatum sand demon with 3.5 honda/091 was just as fast (if not a tad quicker) than my buddies black widow ls3 powered car. my car would out-dune his too.

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1 hour ago, BaBaBouy said:

Wheelies and pounding through the whoops each cost around $1 a foot. The Mendi 2D is fine doing either. As others have said your suspension set up is key. You can spend all the cash you want on a trans axle / motor but if you can't get the power to the ground it's a waste of money.

Before you give up spend the money on getting your car suspension tuned. Most people have no idea what their car is capable of and tend to adapt to the way their car handles instead of making the car handle the way they want.

Suspension tuning done by a professional is not cheap. Depending on your current shock set up you could be looking at $500 - $1000. Because of the price and hassle of making an appointment / meeting the tuner out in the dunes / desert I went 5 buggies without having the tuning done. The last three buggies were all tuned by Ed (Poundsand here on the board). I can't say enough about how well that money was spent on shock tuning. If I had limited funds I'd do the tuning before any motor / trans mods.

There are some good peeps that provide the tuning service, previously I mentioned Ed, Tyler also comes to mind. If you search the Sand Rail forums using "Shock tuning" you should be able to make an informed decision. You may have the right car and just not know it. 

Thank you.  I started talking to a tuner that "King Adam The Great" uses and I'm not opposed to having my car tuned at all.

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10 hours ago, Racerngr1 said:

I'm saying I've been warned by a couple different reputable trans shops that it will kill the tranny quickly, so I just keep it in the dunes.

Best place to be

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And here I was, in a haevy-arse baja bug with a shortstar mouth hugged to a 091. I took this thing to poundtown in the whoops and never had any issues.

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8 hours ago, Racerngr1 said:

Thank you.  I started talking to a tuner that "King Adam The Great" uses and I'm not opposed to having my car tuned at all.

Prince Adam the suitable would be a good source for vendor recommendations.

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21 hours ago, Racerngr1 said:

I'm trying to figure my next move for my next car.  How would a Mendeola sequential hold up in the whoops compared to a 2D, would it be a lot better or just a little? 

depends on which sequential you get.  the S4 has the same ring and pinion as the 2D.  the S4D is the bigger one.

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Go big or go home..

 

Wait, how much?

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No problem running 40+ through those whoops along 78 all day. Those whoops are long so you should be able to keep the tires in them at reasonable speeds.  Just knowing when to get off the go pedal saves a tranny. I had a 250hp Subaru and an 091. Never broke it in the sand, but I did freshen it up every year.  $900-1000 for new bearings and a new R&P once in 4 years. 

Most buggies are set up way to stiff so they skip across the whoops way too early. Granted, it's fun to bomb it at 70+... but ya gotta pay for that pleasure. Right springs and light valving and you are eating whoops for breakfast 

 

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I'm not the right person, but maybe someone should explain why the whoops cause issues with the tranny.  What part of it is destructive.  That education might be helpful. 

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whoops/jumps = destructive shock loads. It's like dumping the clutch every whoop.

Edited by fabr

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11 minutes ago, barneydds said:

I'm not the right person, but maybe someone should explain why the whoops cause issues with the tranny.  What part of it is destructive.  That education might be helpful. 

Going through the whoops under power, the tires leave the sand and freewheel for a second and then dig back in. This violence is repeated over and over, can be very hard on parts over time

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6 minutes ago, barneydds said:

I'm not the right person, but maybe someone should explain why the whoops cause issues with the tranny.  What part of it is destructive.  That education might be helpful. 

Since most cars' suspensions are not setup perfectly, their tires tend to skip over the whoops, so a portion of the time, they do not make contact with the ground. The engine is pushing the gears in the trans, which is transferring that power to the tires via the axles. Since the tires are hopping, the gears are being loaded and unloaded with a lot of force at each hop, this puts a huge amount of strain on the gear surfaces and they'll start chipping teeth off, probably through built up heat at their mating surfaces. It's really rough on the ring & pinion gear. You could drive the same vehicle on smooth pavement and the trans would last forever.

Having the suspension setup properly makes a huge difference, as long as the tires make contact, the transfer of power remains fairly smooth and shock loads are much lower.

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On 1/7/2017 at 6:34 PM, Kevin said:

depends on which sequential you get.  the S4 has the same ring and pinion as the 2D.  the S4D is the bigger one.

not true,  same size as in 10.5 but they are much thicker and stronger.   Like most said dial in your suspension and you won't have a problem.  

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On 1/7/2017 at 7:41 AM, GoatPoker said:

I think you are being led astray here. We need to look at this with more detail. Everyone's definition of "running the whoops"  is different so I would clarify what you want to do before abandoning buggys and getting a ping pong table. This car can run any whoops you ran in an rzr at the same speed without breaking. Let's look at the question this way:

  • a 2d and a v6  is fine as long as you don't severely or frequently shock load the r&p. So if you tune the suspension right and keep the tires in contact with the sand you are golden. 
  • Are you wanting to fly through the bottom of olds with the back end slapping around or run down the sand highway between comp and vendors at 70? If so, yes you'll wear that r&p down fast. 
  • If you do the hill at rzr speed with your suspension soft and try to avoid shocking th tranny, or run the whoops to the store a the 35 or 40mph you'll get several seasons. 

Yes, you will damage r&p eventually. We all do. But plan on $1000 every 2 years instead of a belt every weekend :)

I'll have to agree here...  I post on here all the time before I buy stuff, when stuff breaks etc....  and there are ALWAYS LOTS of opinions!!  However... you have to know that they are just opinions and things that solved their problems.  At the end of the day you grab all the info, weigh out the good and bad and make the best decision for yourself. It's your toy, your money... and at the end of the day... your satisfaction in your investment! :thumbup: 

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1 hour ago, Squatcher said:

not true,  same size as in 10.5 but they are much thicker and stronger.   Like most said dial in your suspension and you won't have a problem.  

I am going to interject here, and not trying to call you out. I just want to make sure that the correct info gets posted. I am trying to reverse some of the mis-information that people read on here (and elsewhere). 

The 2D, S4/5, and Weddle HV transaxles all use the same exact ring and pinion design. They are no thicker or thinner in any way. It is a 10" diameter Klingelnberg Palloid tooth design. The only difference is how we cut the shaft onto the pinion to work with whatever gearset the trans will use. There is a difference in the differential spider gears and side gears as the sequential uses bigger gears that can handle more loads than the smaller MD/HV gears can.

Regarding why driving through the whoops is hard on the trans, Socaldmax explained it pretty well. The unloading of the tire as it leaves the ground then sudden loading as it comes back into contact is what "shock loading" is. That shock load get transferred through the axles and CV's then right into the ring and pinion. That is what causes wear on the gears or even cracks that break the teeth off.  

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5 minutes ago, SEAN@WEDDLE said:

I am going to interject here, and not trying to call you out. I just want to make sure that the correct info gets posted. I am trying to reverse some of the mis-information that people read on here (and elsewhere). 

The 2D, S4/5, and Weddle HV transaxles all use the same exact ring and pinion design. They are no thicker or thinner in any way. It is a 10" diameter Klingelnberg Palloid tooth design. The only difference is how we cut the shaft onto the pinion to work with whatever gearset the trans will use. There is a difference in the differential spider gears and side gears as the sequential uses bigger gears that can handle more loads than the smaller MD/HV gears can.

Regarding why driving through the whoops is hard on the trans, Socaldmax explained it pretty well. The unloading of the tire as it leaves the ground then sudden loading as it comes back into contact is what "shock loading" is. That shock load get transferred through the axles and CV's then right into the ring and pinion. That is what causes wear on the gears or even cracks that break the teeth off.  

Great info as always Sean.

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29 minutes ago, SEAN@WEDDLE said:

I am going to interject here, and not trying to call you out. I just want to make sure that the correct info gets posted. I am trying to reverse some of the mis-information that people read on here (and elsewhere). 

The 2D, S4/5, and Weddle HV transaxles all use the same exact ring and pinion design. They are no thicker or thinner in any way. It is a 10" diameter Klingelnberg Palloid tooth design. The only difference is how we cut the shaft onto the pinion to work with whatever gearset the trans will use. There is a difference in the differential spider gears and side gears as the sequential uses bigger gears that can handle more loads than the smaller MD/HV gears can.

Regarding why driving through the whoops is hard on the trans, Socaldmax explained it pretty well. The unloading of the tire as it leaves the ground then sudden loading as it comes back into contact is what "shock loading" is. That shock load get transferred through the axles and CV's then right into the ring and pinion. That is what causes wear on the gears or even cracks that break the teeth off.  

does this include the PBS S4?

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1 hour ago, BRINGENKAOS said:

does this include the PBS S4?

Yup!

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Maybe a dumb question but,how does the Fortin FRS5 r&p hold up compared to the others used in similar conditions?

Edited by fabr

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thanks for the clarification.  is the pinion bigger on the S4? Looked bigger to me in my garage.  

 

just reread i guess they are the same. 

 

kevin is correct.  sorry

Edited by Squatcher

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