Jump to content
JGSturbo

New build in progress, The Handful

Recommended Posts

Well the Angry Toaster sold so I'm not doing a re-frame.

Most will think I'm nuts but tiny car, twin turbo L33, automatic, no transaxle - whats not to love>?

handful01.jpg

handful02.jpg

handful03.jpg

handful04.jpg

handful05.jpg

handful06.jpg

handful07.jpg

handful08.jpg

handful09.jpg

handful10.jpg

handful11.jpg

handful12.jpg

handful13.jpg

handful14.jpg

handful15.jpg

88" wheelbase SXS w/ roid rage, semi trailing A-arms designed to keep the nose down (maybe).

Length is all about squeezing in the toyhauler. If its too wild of a ride we'll just toss a big bike motor in or V6.

4 corner bypass, EPS, etc. Chassis same as my minimax car albeit +8inch wheel base.

All CNC cut and bent tubing (half the justification of the build- sorting out a new CNC tube cutter/bender).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Damn been a long time glad your back and building a new project. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The business has been requiring my full attention, we're all settled in the new shop and the product has stabilized some.

With that said I'm damn near restaffing next week lol. Kind of got used to having 2 cars, sucks being car-less when things hit the fan.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting project, should be fun - short wheelbase, A-arm rear. I personally worry about keeping the Automatic cool with all the load in the sand if you are running a converter. with any reasonable stall to allow the turbo to spool up.   I have seen this be an issue many times in the past.

Are you planning on using a Jet boat style V drive to  the Diff?  What diff are you planning? Ford 8.8 or Corvette 10 bolt? Or one of an aftermarket  9"  or QC diff with a 930 CV kit?

With the Diff under the engine, you are pushing the Center of gravity pretty far up maybe 12" higher than what we normally do on a sand car,  and the dif generates lots of heat so you need some air gap between it and the pan. Are you planning to offset this with fuel tank and other components down low?

How much travel are you looking at in the rear?

 

Edited by fullthrottleguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the Toaster re-frame thread...

"The design saga continues...

More research into the engine position, I settled on 3.5in higher than where it would be with a 2D and a Caddy pan (I'll be running the full truck pan) and 4 inches further forward than a 2D mount.

Taking the good with the bad I really feel the suspension package is capable of maintaining decent handling with the high engine mount. Further forward means no wheelie queen."

The diff (Aluminum 8.8 Ford from an IRS expedition) will sit lower than a transaxle so the engine won't be as high as you think.  And 4in forward makes it a give/take.

The C4 auto will have ample coolers and we run high heat tractor fluid. IDK its worked for years of TT running Turbo 400s, I just like the light weight C4. It should do ok in a 2400lb car.  

20in rear travel just like my other car thanks to non-plunging CVs tho this time I'm looking to do the larger GM 2500/3500 joints.

V-drive will be custom made with quick change gears. All differentials build heat, everything is aluminum cased.

The QC gears will make it possible to run 3.31:1 in the diff building less heat.

In case this all blows up on me a standard transaxle is an option.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JGSturbo said:

From the Toaster re-frame thread...

"The design saga continues...

More research into the engine position, I settled on 3.5in higher than where it would be with a 2D and a Caddy pan (I'll be running the full truck pan) and 4 inches further forward than a 2D mount.

Taking the good with the bad I really feel the suspension package is capable of maintaining decent handling with the high engine mount. Further forward means no wheelie queen."

The diff (Aluminum 8.8 Ford from an IRS expedition) will sit lower than a transaxle so the engine won't be as high as you think.  And 4in forward makes it a give/take.

The C4 auto will have ample coolers and we run high heat tractor fluid. IDK its worked for years of TT running Turbo 400s, I just like the light weight C4. It should do ok in a 2400lb car.  

20in rear travel just like my other car thanks to non-plunging CVs tho this time I'm looking to do the larger GM 2500/3500 joints.

V-drive will be custom made with quick change gears. All differentials build heat, everything is aluminum cased.

The QC gears will make it possible to run 3.31:1 in the diff building less heat.

In case this all blows up on me a standard transaxle is an option.

 

 

Not sure I understand how its only 3.5" higher - I have all those parts here in my shop including a Mustang 8.8 -  I can't wait to see how you figured it out - please get some pics when its done

Thats QC geared V drive is gonna whine louder than your turbo :sha:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have QC gears in my minimax bike motor, with heavy gear oil I never here them. Its not like a gear drive cam or even straight cut gear box, they never spin extremely fast.

My computers are freakn out the models are so big. But I mach'd up a 2D car and with a Dry sump LS3 pan I came up with 9.5" from the floor pan to the crank center line, any wet sump is going to be worse.

With the separate diff I was able to hang it 3.5" lower than the floor pan. This put my crank centerline to pan at 12.9 inches. Could run a full truck pan if I wanted.

The CV flanges are 4 inches closer to to the back of the engine. 

2dmachup.jpg

handfulmachup.jpg

Having the Diff lower doesn't really affect the travel numbers just give huge droop numbers vs the floor pan.

Plan on doing some trimming on the bellhousing, its a 10inch converter that stalls @ 3K. With the truck cam I'm not really concerned with turbo spool, its more cake for the top end. It'll run like a built motor without built motor problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Intercooler behind the radiator is a bad idea, air intake tempatures are important espically on a boosted application and your only drawing hot air from the back side of the radiator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, KingAdamtheGreat said:

Intercooler behind the radiator is a bad idea, air intake tempatures are important espically on a boosted application and your only drawing hot air from the back side of the radiator

Ya I've been thinking about that... Somewhere in my brain I was prioritizing coolant temps... but hot air won't help those either.  I should swap them around, hard to have a rail with a good rear view lol.

handful16.jpg
Just blew a $4500 via Jegs, HolleyEFI and 7in touch screen dash... Comp C4 (full manual)...Fuel cell, etc.
Debating dropping the B-pillars, ingress looks challenging, have loads of A-pillar bracing, not racing, getting older

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, KingAdamtheGreat said:

Intercooler behind the radiator is a bad idea, air intake tempatures are important espically on a boosted application and your only drawing hot air from the back side of the radiator

Not that it’s optimal, but if you have to mount it that way, the cold side of the radiator only adds about 10-20* to air temps leaving the radiator, and the hot side 30-40* assuming decent airflow and radiator sizing. At 10psi, the 100* of added temp to ambient (guesstimate for a decent turbo) would still be cooled by a post radiator intercooler. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Semi trailing not wheelie as much because of anti-squat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm thinking wheelie machine ?. What are the projected weights front to rear ?. At first that chassis reminded me of the Sandcars.net 2 seater that a friend in my group has. Right side of pic.5a14cb17e636c_IMG_20170517_091612652_HDRlasttrip.thumb.jpg.50c6f8cc340a4be44e9f32f63abe4af2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This car is just as short... shorter actually.

2smcb175.jpg

Turbo bike motor, 220 ish hp, geared for 90mph and we have yet to really sky the front end much and when it does its off a large roller WOT at the top.

I've bounced the poor thing in deep ditches, G-outs, etc. it's never hurt me or the car. Whoop roads wide open pulling gears, easy to get it to float.

Hammer down it barely droops to preload.

That said I've never measured the anti-squat like all A-arms there is some scrub on bump so that effects the squat to some degree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I was at the Veteran's day celebration I saw a pretty cool " XTC " car that from a far looked like a SXS but it had a Subie ? and a 2d or maybe an S4 ? . That was a bad ass car !!!!!!!!.

Any pic's or info anyone ? !.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/18/2017 at 7:08 PM, JGSturbo said:

I have QC gears in my minimax bike motor, with heavy gear oil I never here them. Its not like a gear drive cam or even straight cut gear box, they never spin extremely fast.

My computers are freakn out the models are so big. But I mach'd up a 2D car and with a Dry sump LS3 pan I came up with 9.5" from the floor pan to the crank center line, any wet sump is going to be worse.

With the separate diff I was able to hang it 3.5" lower than the floor pan. This put my crank centerline to pan at 12.9 inches. Could run a full truck pan if I wanted.

The CV flanges are 4 inches closer to to the back of the engine. 

2dmachup.jpg

handfulmachup.jpg

Having the Diff lower doesn't really affect the travel numbers just give huge droop numbers vs the floor pan.

Plan on doing some trimming on the bellhousing, its a 10inch converter that stalls @ 3K. With the truck cam I'm not really concerned with turbo spool, its more cake for the top end. It'll run like a built motor without built motor problems.

I like your design and really cannot wait to see it finished.  I  still think you raised the Engine and trans by 9.75" which is the height of the Ford 8.8" Center section, although it seems you have some of the CS below the bar? that seems like a problem.  Lets say its above the bar with skid plate for safety, given you have no gap between that the trans pan - that basically puts close to 600lbs almost 1 ft higher than a standard sand car with no offset. The Aluminum 8.8 weighs less than 30lbs wet.   10" converter is a good idea.  I agree anti squat with a semi-trailing arm arrangement will seriously help to prevent wheelies, but without an A-arm, I do not understand how you are saying it will not plunge? Unless the rate of change of the during travel does not follow and arc (like and A-arm) you will have plunge, any trailing arm follows an arc....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JGSturbo said:

This car is just as short... shorter actually.

2smcb175.jpg

Turbo bike motor, 220 ish hp, geared for 90mph and we have yet to really sky the front end much and when it does its off a large roller WOT at the top.

I've bounced the poor thing in deep ditches, G-outs, etc. it's never hurt me or the car. Whoop roads wide open pulling gears, easy to get it to float.

Hammer down it barely droops to preload.

That said I've never measured the anti-squat like all A-arms there is some scrub on bump so that effects the squat to some degree.

Short cars will tend to raise the front end unless the back is really stiff or the weight distribution is very close to 50/50, even short arm mid engines with 55/45 tend to wheelie under hard acceration - The Turbo LS is a completely different beast than a Street bike motor - the difference is TQ - that Street bike motor probably turns a comfortable 9,000-10,000 RPM to get to 220HP,   after all HP is essentially TQ x RPM... now take your Turbo LS with 3,000 stall converter that might flash to 4,000. Under load the TQ curve with the Turbo will be huge and mostly flat due the "slush box" - at say 3500 RPM the HP may only be 500- 600 and you will lose probably 40% in the drivetrain with the auto, the V-drive, and Diff and CV, but TQ will not diminish much -  the TQ will be likely the same (500 - 600) vs. maybe 75-100 ft Lbs on the Bike engine even at 8,000 - 9,000 RPM and I would bet that short Bike powered car is close to 50/50 weight distribution where the LS  Car will be at best 40/60 and I would bet closer to 35/65, so unless those rear arms are very long, that car is going stand up hard on the top of each gear - Its gonna be a "Handful" :sha:

Edited by fullthrottleguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've built 3 Semi-trailing A-Arm cars, they all have 1/8-1/2(first try)" of plunge over 20in travel. 

I've spent a lot of time getting the axles to behave like tie rods with no bump steer, the little bit of plunge is handled by the CV stars.

It works pretty well , since there isn't much plunge they don't pump grease as much and seem easier on grease.

Look at the 12.9" measurement on my car and the 9.5" dim on the 2D above it.

And thats without tipping the trans to get pan clearance like most cars I see.

Both numbers are from the pan. Not say it isn't taller but no 12".  It would have been 7inches if I didn't drop diff 3.5".

Scale numbers from the MC car (it was an early dry scale, total later was like 1875 wet).

2smcb133.jpg

Should be a wheelie queen with a VW and its really not.

Now add V8 power (not shooting for big numbers, just a stock 5.3L with some boost) a handful indeed.

Edited by JGSturbo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

handful18.jpg

I'd be further if I wasn't sick.

Edited by JGSturbo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, JGSturbo said:

This car is just as short... shorter actually.

2smcb175.jpg

Turbo bike motor, 220 ish hp, geared for 90mph and we have yet to really sky the front end much and when it does its off a large roller WOT at the top.

I've bounced the poor thing in deep ditches, G-outs, etc. it's never hurt me or the car. Whoop roads wide open pulling gears, easy to get it to float.

Hammer down it barely droops to preload.

That said I've never measured the anti-squat like all A-arms there is some scrub on bump so that effects the squat to some degree.

A/S helps make her loose too. Not a bad thing in the dunes. :bigrin 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll wait for the XTC car. Seems they already have a working proto.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, sandhammerer said:

I'll wait for the XTC car. Seems they already have a working proto.

:huh: I'm not really a builder, Just a dude with some cool tools and shop space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, JGSturbo said:

Not very loose with 33blasters :sha:

 

All the weight out back, some rear steer would definitely be helpful. :bigrin 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

handful19.jpg
handful20.jpg
Seat brackets from the minimax are looooowww riiiiideeeerr. I need a booster lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

More Links

©2001 GlamisDunes.com.
All rights reserved.

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.