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JGSturbo

New build in progress, The Handful

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The LS's are notorious for getting air pockets in them, I always have to open the steam ports when I am filling with water to make sure I get all of the air out. I would check that if you have not done so already. I also have the holes drilled on my thermostat but I dont think that is your problem, since the thermostat should be open at 215.

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23 hours ago, Kraut_n_Rice said:

Why would you pick an undersized alternator in a class of vehicle known to be kinda power hungry? 

I wouldn't say under-size, works good on the other car (same draw). I believe an oversize alternator leads to more electrolysis. Whether the field is demanding or not your still spinning that big alt... thats my theory.

 

To be honest about a E.waterpump, I'm making excuses because my budgets blown, times up and that oregon summer is coming. :)  That bolton one would be nice.

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38 minutes ago, Kraut_n_Rice said:

Pretty sure the whole size is 5/8".

That seems more realistic. 

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1 hour ago, Kraut_n_Rice said:

Pretty sure the whole size is 5/8".

 

44 minutes ago, JGSturbo said:

That seems more realistic. 

I think you're misunderstanding what Chingon619 and Kraut are referring to... the "hole" that's deep inside the water pump where some insert the freeze plug, is a bypass section of the pump.  If you choose to run without a thermostat, that hole/port/water passage must be plugged to force water from the the block into the radiator.   When cold, the thermostat opens that bypass port, creating a passage between the  supply and return lines from the radiator, resulting in a short cycling of coolant.  One could surmise some coolant from the block is undoubtedly moving through the radiator however, certainly not enough to keep things under control.  Back to the freeze plug, the small hole Chingon610 is referring to is not for circulating coolant rather, it's just an air bleed to help with those air pockets...  drilled into the top of the freeze plug.  If you're going to run a thermostat, make sure it's the correct one that has two sections on it- the conventional portion of the thermostat that's familiar to us old guys, but also at the tip of the thermostat is the section that opens and closes that bypass.  I'm assuming the idea behind this setup is to reduce engine warm-up time... primarily for emissions, but also to get that heater working a little more quickly for those living in the colder climates, don't take that to the bank, but seems logical to me.  

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10 hours ago, Chingon619 said:

Wait, pull the T stat out. I believe we use a freeze plug of a certain size in its place that gets hammered in. It should have a small hole drilled into it about 1/4" if I recall correctly. This is how CBM I believe does it. I did it on my stock LS1 and worked perfectly. I can't remember the size but it works. 

What you are addressing is if the t-stat is removed it needs a "restricter" plate installed to slow down the flow and allow time for heat transfer. That's why the plug is installed to act as a restricter.

The hole however will need to be larger than 1/4 inch probably 1/2 inch or bigger.

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2 hours ago, JGSturbo said:

I wouldn't say under-size, works good on the other car (same draw). I believe an oversize alternator leads to more electrolysis. Whether the field is demanding or not your still spinning that big alt... thats my theory.

 

To be honest about a E.waterpump, I'm making excuses because my budgets blown, times up and that oregon summer is coming. :)  That bolton one would be nice.

Most modern diesel trucks have two alternators.  I installed a second on my DMAX.  15 years later, no issues.

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One other thing,  while I'm confident many will either disagree or at minimum allege hair splitting, looping the heater hose is creating another passage for coolant to flow between the supply and return sides of the water pump, much like that bypass port... enough to be a problem?   Probably not however,  we do know there's a supply (hot) port and a return (cold) port on the water pump... that said, connecting those two ports together now allows a percentage of heated coolant to re-enter directly into the cold or return side of the water pump... without first passing through a radiator, be it a heater core or the engine radiator.   I know, probably insignificant however, if you're looking to maximize the efficiency of your cooling system, these two ports should be capped.  

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1 hour ago, Romans9 said:

What you are addressing is if the t-stat is removed it needs a "restricter" plate installed to slow down the flow and allow time for heat transfer. That's why the plug is installed to act as a restricter.

The hole however will need to be larger than 1/4 inch probably 1/2 inch or bigger.

How dare you speak mechan-ese to me! 😁 Call it what you will but a half inch hole or bigger in what seems like a 3" restrictor is probably a little much. Where da pros at?

I believe the hole is to allow air back into the top flowing of the system if ever trapped on the other side.

Edited by Chingon619

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Ok here, we have Google pretty fkn cool!

As said over at pirate 4x4>>>

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/847999-lsx-thermostat.html

 

and I quote "I called Turn Key and they told me to but a 31mm freeze plug and drill a 1/4" hole in the center and drive it in the pump behind the neck." 

post #24 also, mention of 5/8 hole so whatever. Just do it! My point is the size of freeze plug. BOOM!

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59 minutes ago, Romans9 said:

What you are addressing is if the t-stat is removed it needs a "restricter" plate installed to slow down the flow and allow time for heat transfer. That's why the plug is installed to act as a restricter.

The hole however will need to be larger than 1/4 inch probably 1/2 inch or bigger.

Allow me to apologize up front if this sounds like I'm stepping on toes, the notion that one must impede or restrict flow to allow for more efficient heat transfer is a myth.  Think about it... as you're now leaving coolant in the radiator longer to cool down, you're also leaving that same coolant in the engine longer, allowing it to get that much hotter.  Add to that, what would be the point of  installing a "high performance" water pump with a higher flow rate to then just restrict or slow it down?  As to the freeze plug, that's placed in the water pump to block the bypass port of the pump... it doesn't act as a restrictor to slow down the movement of coolant through the radiator rather,  it's just blocking off the bypass.  The small hole does allow for a small amount of coolant to bypass however, it's primary function is to address the air pocket issue.  I know some of these old notions have been around for 50-plus years (or longer), but there's just no truth to this "flow restriction" idea.  There's a whole bunch more to cooling systems and heat transfer that may or may not be of any interest to most, here's two paragraphs from Griffin Thermal Products that are relevant to this discussion;

Heat spontaneously transfers from hotter objects to cooler objects. The rate at which this transfer occurs depends primarily on the difference in temperature between the two (the delta-T). When the difference is great, the transfer occurs extremely rapidly. As the temperature difference decreases - the rate of heat transfer decreases exponentially. This fact is an expression of Newton's Law of Cooling and understanding it is critical to dispelling one of the greatest and most-often quoted myths surrounding cooling systems. A good example of this law can be seen when quenching a red-hot piece of steel in a bucket of water. At first, the temperature difference (delta-T) between the red-hot steel and the water is huge - therefore the initial heat transfer occurs at a great rate - the steel initially cools very fast - almost instantaneously. However, after this initial cooling, the delta-T is much smaller, so the remaining cooling occurs much more slowly. If you removed the steel after a second or two - it has cooled a lot - but it will still be warm. To continue cooling the steel to the temp. of the water, you have to leave it in there quite a bit longer - because as it cools - the rate of cooling continually decreases as well. In short - initial cooling is fast, but subsequent cooling occurs more and more slowly until cooling that last little bit takes a long, long time.

 

If you choose to run without a thermostat, do not use a restrictor. The restrictor will do nothing for you except reduce coolant flow which ultimately reduces cooling.

Years ago restrictors were popular for two reasons that do not hold true today. First, as we have discussed, older radiator designs (large cross-sectional area copper tubes) were poor at promoting the necessary coolant turbulence in the radiator, so a restrictor was used to cause the coolant to begin tumbling as it exited the engine and entered the radiator. Secondly, with engines that had the thermostat located in the outlet of the engine combined with down-flow radiators that had a fairly low pressure radiator cap on the high pressure inlet side, if the thermostat was removed the increased pressure seen by the cap from the water pump could cause the cap's rating to be exceeded and the valve to open and purge coolant. Since this opening of the rad cap is what regulates system pressure, it meant that the overall system pressure would now be lower - the cap would open sooner than if the thermostat were in place holding backpressure in the cylinder head. Since system pressure was now lower, coolant vapour point was lower, and therefore the coolant's ability to effectively carry-off heat from the engine at higher temps reduced. This in turn would result in eventual overheating. Many folks erroneously assumed that the overheating was due to the coolant flowing through the radiator too quickly with the thermostat removed, that it didn't have time to cool in the rad. As a result, restrictors were used to "slow the flow of the coolant" and the car stopped overheating. Unfortunately, these folks didn't understand the real cause and effect of the overheating that they experienced after removing the thermostat, and this led to two enduring myths that persist today.

What was really happening was that the removal of the thermostat didn't cause the coolant to flow too fast to cool (we know this is an impossibility), but rather caused a condition where either system pressure (and therefore coolant vapour point) was lowered or where the rad purged coolant which caused the car to overheat. The end result was the same - the car overheated - but the cause and effect were confused and so the myths that  a) removing a thermostat can cause a car to overheat and b) coolant can be pumped too fast through a radiator to cool properly began. Neither of these are true.

Of course, today's cross-flow radiators that locate the rad cap on the low-pressure side, do not subject the rad cap to the maximum pressure created by the water pump and so are not susceptible to the pump forcing coolant past the rad cap. We also know now that all systems benefit from maximum flow - never from reducing flow.

Ultimately, reducers reduce the flow of coolant which actually hurts system cooling efficiency, not improves it.

  

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Well my experience tells me otherwise, real world experience not advice from someone trying to sell something.

Most thermostats at full open are restricted as compared to the size of the opening without a thermostat installed.

I have sat through many Caterpillar, Cummins, Komatsu, Hino, etc. classes that confirm coolant flow has to be restricted to achieve proper thermal exchange to prevent hot pockets from forming around cylinder walls and in cylinder heads.

 

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2 minutes ago, Romans9 said:

Well my experience tells me otherwise, real world experience not advice from someone trying to sell something.

Most thermostats at full open are restricted as compared to the size of the opening without a thermostat installed.

I have sat through many Caterpillar, Cummins, Komatsu, Hino, etc. classes that confirm coolant flow has to be restricted to achieve proper thermal exchange to prevent hot pockets from forming around cylinder walls and in cylinder heads.

 

The info provided has absolutely nothing to do with any products someone is trying to sell... Griffin isn't pushing some high-zoot high flow water pump, or magical radiator that has the ability to flow water at a higher rate than brand x, so I'm not seeing the relevance .  Now, if it was from Edelbrock pushing their high flow water pump, I'd get it... that said, these two paragraphs were from a lengthy article meant to be nothing more than an educational piece, not a sales pitch.   Although you're likely not interested, perhaps others on this site might find it enlightening.  

 http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Cooling/

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4 hours ago, carboy said:

 

I think you're misunderstanding what Chingon619 and Kraut are referring to... the "hole" that's deep inside the water pump where some insert the freeze plug, is a bypass section of the pump.  If you choose to run without a thermostat, that hole/port/water passage must be plugged to force water from the the block into the radiator.   When cold, the thermostat opens that bypass port, creating a passage between the  supply and return lines from the radiator, resulting in a short cycling of coolant.  One could surmise some coolant from the block is undoubtedly moving through the radiator however, certainly not enough to keep things under control.  Back to the freeze plug, the small hole Chingon610 is referring to is not for circulating coolant rather, it's just an air bleed to help with those air pockets...  drilled into the top of the freeze plug.  If you're going to run a thermostat, make sure it's the correct one that has two sections on it- the conventional portion of the thermostat that's familiar to us old guys, but also at the tip of the thermostat is the section that opens and closes that bypass.  I'm assuming the idea behind this setup is to reduce engine warm-up time... primarily for emissions, but also to get that heater working a little more quickly for those living in the colder climates, don't take that to the bank, but seems logical to me.  

I think I did.... I get it now. Not T-stat definitely cools better than the 180 with a small bleed hole. But at idle it creeps a bit till you rev it up. Basically it recirculates without cutting down the huge bypass hole under the T-stat. I think I'll try gutting the valve out of a stat without removing the restriction valve.

Anybody ever thought about dumping the Tstat, restriction plug and then adding an inline t-stat on the hot side? That would be more like a traditional cooling system.

Edited by JGSturbo

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20 minutes ago, JGSturbo said:

I think I did.... I get it now. Not T-stat definitely cools better than the 180 with a small bleed hole. But at idle it creeps a bit till you rev it up. Basically it recirculates without cutting down the huge bypass hole under the T-stat. I think I'll try gutting the valve out of a stat without removing the restriction valve.

Anybody ever thought about dumping the Tstat, restriction plug and then adding an inline t-stat on the hot side? That would be more like a traditional cooling system.

Restriction plug?  Just to clarify, the freeze plug with the small hole in it has nothing to do with restricting the circulation of coolant through the engine and radiator, normal coolant flow doesn't travel this path.  Coolant only travels through that port (where the freeze plug would go) when the engine is cold, the main thermostat is closed, thus the bypass section of the thermostat is open, allowing for coolant to circulate freely through the radiator, without being pushed through the engine.   Yes, typically there are small bypass holes in the stock thermostat bypass section, so a small amount of coolant is always bypassing, problem would arise if that port was left open once operating temperature was reached.   I've seen guys plug the bypass port with the freeze plug and run both the correct "two function" thermostat or an older "single function" thermostat successfully.  The stock LS thermostat has to perform two functions correctly.... plug the bypass port once temp is up and open the pathway so coolant from the radiator can enter the engine.  I think the thought is by plugging the bypass port, one potential failure point has been eliminated.  The point I'm stressing is, the freeze plug is a must if you choose to run without a thermostat as it plugs the bypass portion of pump.  Of course, some choose to go the freeze plug route, no thermostat... being in the warmer climate, most that I have talked to state they have no problems with low engine temps, although warm-up time is likely a little longer.  FWIW, I ran the freeze plug with the stock thermostat for 4 years without any issues.... when I did a new water pump, I figured I'd go the OEM route, no freeze plug, a 180 degree "two function" OEM style thermostat, into that set-up now for 4 years, no issues.  The thermostat you're running should look like this...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-6367

That section at the "bottom" with the 4 small holes in it is what plugs the bypass port once the engine temperature is up and the engine thermostat opens... if you open up those holes, you're just allowing more coolant to bypass the radiator, further reducing system efficiency, might have a greater impact at lower RPM as the water pump volume is reduced.  At higher RPM. water pump might produce enough volume to overcome the enlarged bypass holes and force coolant through the block and into the radiator, but that's just a guess.  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Kraut_n_Rice said:

On a Honda, the T-stat is on the cold side.  :rbj:

LS too... 

 

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When I say restriction plug yes I mean the plug under the T-stat.

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Temp is better now. But now I have a clack that sounds like a rod bearing but all bearings look the the same and none loose. Only thing found so far is a 1/4" stack of fine metal on the drain bolt mag...

FACK!

Just had to get that out.

I took it for 2 drives around the block... never past 4k.

Valve train next...

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image.thumb.jpeg.786a079093a454b58446c739ea11c200.jpeg

And here we set, 14 out of 16 lifters don't hold oil anymore....

 

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Hopefully new parts tomorrow, took a plasma cutter to the cross member under the motor... I have a new removable version ready to mount.

Did get the leaky axle seals changed. Not looking forward to dropping the V-drive already to change a leaky tail shaft seal.

Fix/repair before we even see sand, fantastic. No sand tires or wheels yet so not missing anything but I'd rather be fine tuning those twin turbos on the dyno.

I do think the main coils in the rear need to be stiffer, 4inches of preload isn't good.

The Fummins tow rig doesn't like me either, bare min oil pressure on a fresh motor.

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