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J Alper

Making a Motor Live

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Thank you Jetjock, I did not run a cooler or even look at oil temps till jetjock turned me on to the idea,

I am glad we are having discussion about sand cars on this site,  we post more topics next week

 

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There's lots of good info on the 540 Rat page. I think there a lot of people who miss the boat on knowing about oils and where they differ in film strength (PSI rating) and the thermal breakdown of an oil, which he covers well. I also think that people think that if they aren't seeing any failures that what they are running is a "good" oil, and that isn't always the case, and it may actually be the wrong oil altogether. Driven has some good charts and info listed as well of power increases or loses with different grades of oil. 

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i dont recall the temps i saw on my car as i havent ran it in a couple years now, but my engine (old school 400 block) is notorious for temp issues. the belief is that because of the siamese cylinders it runs hotter and doesn't cool, when actually its the oil temps that get out of control and cause the cooling system to fail.  this is my oil cooler i put on the car.

biggest cooler kartek had. 10"fan on it.

P1010088.thumb.JPG.269fbde63add6e279625697965324f76.JPG

 

i know ideally you want to pick up the temp readings in the pan, but taking it off the remote filter housing was just easier. first place the oil is pumped to anyways from the pan so i dont htink the differenece in temp is that much.

IMG_0058.thumb.jpg.b575eacf7ff1f92962cd7a814017e4f1.jpg

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Great info here. According to the 540Rat page, select you oil based on oil pressure, where the lower the oil weigh the less heat it generates. With this info, using 40 weight for "extra protection" doesn't actually accomplish anything. 

 

Wondering if our diesel tow vehicles, should go to 30 weight, assuming it still makes good oil pressure with it? Theoretically it'll be running cooler, make more power, best economy. Very interesting.

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My diesel truck doesn't go much above 230F on a 6% grade when it is 110F outside.  Towing 16,000lbs.

I run full synthetic 5W40 per the manufactures direction.

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1 hour ago, steinberg55 said:

Great info here. According to the 540Rat page, select you oil based on oil pressure, where the lower the oil weigh the less heat it generates. With this info, using 40 weight for "extra protection" doesn't actually accomplish anything. 

 

Wondering if our diesel tow vehicles, should go to 30 weight, assuming it still makes good oil pressure with it? Theoretically it'll be running cooler, make more power, best economy. Very interesting.

One reason I heard for running  heavier oil was to help keep the sump wet. 

If you notice it starving, this might work as a bandaid. Better solution is traps in the oil pan, accusump (not a fan)...

or dry sump...

:makerain:

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it really has to with bearing clearance on what we are trying to accomplish, I really can not suggest what weight without knowing your clearance

for factory motors on a LS they run around .0011 to .0015 so that would be around 5w-30s

on our stroker motors we are around .0023-.0028 so the oil we stick to is 15w-50s

and now on my lsx block we are over .003 and the oil it like is a 20w-50s 

for me I like to see over 28psi hot and that a and bearing clearance is what I set for my oil,

if I had a stock motor with a clearance of .0015 running 20w-50s and the oil pressure was under 20 hot and under 45 cold then I would pull it apart

 

this is all based off the oil pump, pressure bypass spring, the factory spring and the mellings are different,

So some motors are a individual on oil, I still feel if you do not have a oil temp guage, then it might make sense to run a syn oil just for extra protection, there is so many ways dirt and sand can get in a motor that I still try to change it every trip or no more thank every other trip,

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1 minute ago, Rockwood said:

One reason I heard for running  heavier oil was to help keep the sump wet. 

If you notice it starving, this might work as a bandaid. Better solution is traps in the oil pan, accusump (not a fan)...

or dry sump...

:makerain:

Interesting, use a heavier oil to keep the sump wet. This follows the theory that the pump will pump less volume with the heavy oil, thus not pumping the sump out. 

540 Rat addressed running a sump dry (oil starvation at the pick up, not to be confused with a dry sump setup) doesn't happen because the pump is pump too much, pumping the pan dry. It more a function of drain holes allowing/not allowing the oil to drain back to the pan. Per his research/info a 30 wt oil drains back quicker and has less air entrained then heavier weight oils. Its as if, assuming the engine had proper drain holes, the 30 weight lowers time spent going through the engine and drain back, effectively increasing the oil level in the pan.  

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12 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

One reason I heard for running  heavier oil was to help keep the sump wet. 

If you notice it starving, this might work as a bandaid. Better solution is traps in the oil pan, accusump (not a fan)...

or dry sump...

:makerain:

The weight does not really matter on oil starvation issues for a LS, the pumps only pump about 9 gallon of oil a minute, at the end of the day the big help from a Drysump is the air separation from the oil, on the LS style pump what is not a good design for Hi RPM, it really starts to put air in the oil over 6000 rpm, foam is not a great lubricant

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39 minutes ago, J Alper said:

The weight does not really matter on oil starvation issues for a LS, the pumps only pump about 9 gallon of oil a minute, at the end of the day the big help from a Drysump is the air separation from the oil, on the LS style pump what is not a good design for Hi RPM, it really starts to put air in the oil over 6000 rpm, foam is not a great lubricant

The heavier weight oil was supposed to slosh less and keep the sump submerged more. In our experience, this didn’t fix anything because the oil was so much hotter, actual fluidity was about the same. 

Edited by Rockwood

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IMG_0490.thumb.JPG.0816f879e3349e6963cd9b19e26e74fb.JPGI have a CBR radiator with the oil heat exchanger built in to the side of it.  I don't have an oil temp gauge...I was just wondering how effective the exchangers are? Also, How much oil do they hold? I'm assuming when the motor is off the oil drains back down into the pan so I just make sure the oil level is over the full line when I check it??? I know it's bad to have too much oil but I don't want to run it too low either. 

 

~jw

Edited by jwest2sh

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1 hour ago, jwest2sh said:

IMG_0490.thumb.JPG.0816f879e3349e6963cd9b19e26e74fb.JPGI have a CBR radiator with the oil heat exchanger built in to the side of it.  I don't have an oil temp gauge...I was just wondering how effective the exchangers are? Also, How much oil do they hold? I'm assuming when the motor is off the oil drains back down into the pan so I just make sure the oil level is over the full line when I check it??? I know it's bad to have too much oil but I don't want to run it too low either. 

 

~jw

Jetjock runs one they work really good, he has the PRW or the CBR style, it added about 5-10 degrees on water and dropped the oil about 40 degrees, so I think that is a really good way to go,

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Oil:water is extremely efficient, but puts more load on your radiator than it cools, since it's using coolant to cool, then had to cool the coolant (LOL at that sentence). Nice thing is you won't need additional fans to wire.

For the oil level, I'd fill it with the lines disconnected and both ends above the cooler and measure as you fill, or drain into a measuring cylinder (hide evidence from the wife if you're borrowing hers :bigrin), then add that value to whatever you usually put into the motor if it didn't have a cooler.  Start and let it fill again, then let it sit overnight and measure oil. Scratch a mark into the dipstick for your new oil level if it's different than stock (the cooler might not drain).

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On 1/15/2018 at 2:54 PM, lincster said:

My diesel truck doesn't go much above 230F on a 6% grade when it is 110F outside.  Towing 16,000lbs.

I run full synthetic 5W40 per the manufactures direction.

Stock trucks or close to stock usually dont have much of an issue there.

20 hours ago, jwest2sh said:

IMG_0490.thumb.JPG.0816f879e3349e6963cd9b19e26e74fb.JPGI have a CBR radiator with the oil heat exchanger built in to the side of it.  I don't have an oil temp gauge...I was just wondering how effective the exchangers are? Also, How much oil do they hold? I'm assuming when the motor is off the oil drains back down into the pan so I just make sure the oil level is over the full line when I check it??? I know it's bad to have too much oil but I don't want to run it too low either. 

 

~jw

as stated above, it will work well. Long as the cooling capacity in the radiator isnt over taken by the heat of the coolant and oil, it will work well. it will knock temps down quicker as well as warm the oil quicker on cold days. the nice part is should you over tax the cooling system with oil temps, you can always add an air-to-oil cooler in line to help with temps

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50 minutes ago, Chevy1925 said:

Stock trucks or close to stock usually dont have much of an issue there.

as stated above, it will work well. Long as the cooling capacity in the radiator isnt over taken by the heat of the coolant and oil, it will work well. it will knock temps down quicker as well as warm the oil quicker on cold days. the nice part is should you over tax the cooling system with oil temps, you can always add an air-to-oil cooler in line to help with temps

Thanks for the info guys.  It's a pretty big radiator with 2 x 16" fans. It runs between 180-190.  I've only seen 200* once with dirt tires in the sand at Super spinning the tires and not really moving very fast.  It came right back down as soon as we stopped.  I'm going to add an oil temp gauge anyway.

 

~jw

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4 hours ago, jwest2sh said:

Thanks for the info guys.  It's a pretty big radiator with 2 x 16" fans. It runs between 180-190.  I've only seen 200* once with dirt tires in the sand at Super spinning the tires and not really moving very fast.  It came right back down as soon as we stopped.  I'm going to add an oil temp gauge anyway.

 

~jw

My bet is about 10-15* hotter than water. :bigrin 

Goes without saying: be careful adding a sensor to the pan.  Buggies tend to drag engines more than most vehicles... 

Edited by Rockwood

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3 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

My bet is about 10-15* hotter than water. :bigrin 

Goes without saying: be careful adding a sensor to the pan.  Buggies tend to drag engines more than most vehicles... 

I think there is one more port left on the block that diverts the oil to the cooler. It's right where the filter is so the oil comes right out of the pan.  Shouldn't be much temp drop there?

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38 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

My bet is about 10-15* hotter than water. :bigrin 

Goes without saying: be careful adding a sensor to the pan.  Buggies tend to drag engines more than most vehicles... 

Yes you need to go for oil temps on the oil passage, on the oil pan will give a different reading, I have seen oil pan temps in the pan 60 degrees higher than the oil passage, why I do not know just see a difference on the racepak,

same deal on water temp, I have 2 temps on the racepak one in the pump and one in the head, they are always about 10-20 degrees different from one another, pump seems to increase and decrease more than the head temps,

 

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The oil temp gauge in my DMAX is in the filter housing. My cooler takes full engine flow from a sandwich adapter on the filter. It's big. #10 lines.

Before I installed the cooler, but with gauge, I loaded up my Ex's crewcab Tundra on an 18'open car trailer and pulled out from Phoenix up the 17 to sunset overlook. Now this was not my monster tune, stock Allison safe tow tune. Oil temps were high. Like 300+. Pressure was still good.

Added a very large cooler and that allowed me to tow my big trailer (37') loaded to the dunes, at the speed limit (overish), with a much larger tune without worry.  Even allows me to run electric cooling fans instead of the mechanical one.  This keeps the oil temps about 100 over ambient.  Sometimes hits 240 on longer pulls, but that is better than they were before the cooler just driving around town.

 

Edited by Kraut_n_Rice

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On 1/15/2018 at 2:09 PM, steinberg55 said:

Interesting, use a heavier oil to keep the sump wet. This follows the theory that the pump will pump less volume with the heavy oil, thus not pumping the sump out. 

540 Rat addressed running a sump dry (oil starvation at the pick up, not to be confused with a dry sump setup) doesn't happen because the pump is pump too much, pumping the pan dry. It more a function of drain holes allowing/not allowing the oil to drain back to the pan. Per his research/info a 30 wt oil drains back quicker and has less air entrained then heavier weight oils. Its as if, assuming the engine had proper drain holes, the 30 weight lowers time spent going through the engine and drain back, effectively increasing the oil level in the pan.  

DING DING....if you have a Rat empting the sump you have a problem with drain back somewhere. Only one I have ever seen had rollock disc crap impeding the oiling holes at the mains, cam galley and slug in the cylinder heads. It was an older road race 427 that the owner swore by Pennzoil..... WHAT WAS WAX WILL ALWAYS RETURN TO WAX. 


I have been noticing on some of the new Power Strokes and Duramax's the oil temp gauge is a dummy gauge.....you can have a 30 degree swing in temp and it does not move.... you can only tell the difference through the digital display. 

I know when I was building a lot of the aircooled porsche and vw stuff we use to say for every 10 degrees over 275 on a race car for an extended period was at least a weekend at the track.  Once we had multiple coolers and a car down to a max of 275 for oil temp those engines would double in life expectancy. Had multiple engines running 2 seasons at competition level power. and like J Alper says these motors on tear down were so much happier!!! I think it is a testament to the fact that the oil in your engine is not just lubrication but ALSO a secondary cooling system....

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13 hours ago, blackmagic250R said:




I have been noticing on some of the new Power Strokes and Duramax's the oil temp gauge is a dummy gauge.....you can have a 30 degree swing in temp and it does not move.... you can only tell the difference through the digital display. 

 

How do you figure this?

My 6.7L has a digital readout that is changing constantly.  190 empty up to 235 towing.

It follows ambient air swings as well as towing up a hill, it goes up, going down hill, it goes down.
I don't all this a dummy gauge at all.

Older power strokes, yes, you are right.

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2 hours ago, lincster said:

How do you figure this?

My 6.7L has a digital readout that is changing constantly.  190 empty up to 235 towing.

It follows ambient air swings as well as towing up a hill, it goes up, going down hill, it goes down.
I don't all this a dummy gauge at all.

Older power strokes, yes, you are right.

He's talking about the analog gauge, not the digital readout (which he mentioned).

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19 hours ago, Rockwood said:

He's talking about the analog gauge, not the digital readout (which he mentioned).

He said "newer" Powerstrokes.

Since 2011, no Powerstroke has had an analog gauge for anything to do with the motor oil.

Engine coolant and tranny temp, those are analog.

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Guys this post is doing really good about temps and oil, lets not do the back and forth about vehicles, this really should inform people in the dunes that, there is more than water temp that determines when a vehicle should be shut down

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1 hour ago, J Alper said:

Guys this post is doing really good about temps and oil, lets not do the back and forth about vehicles, this really should inform people in the dunes that, there is more than water temp that determines when a vehicle should be shut down

Word. Sorry about shitting on the thread. :)

Some newer cars that monitor oil temp cut power at 275* and full limp mode at 300*. 275* is the limit for me. After that, I’m backing off to get them under control and rethinking cooling if it’s happens more than once or twice. 

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