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pennywise

What motor 415, 425, 440 or LSA

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Building a new car and trying to figure out what motor. Car is a going to be a 5 seater probably with a PBS trans. Trying to figure out what to run. Looking for all around duner with quick throttle response. Not looking to spend $25k hoping to keep it around $16-18k complete. Between  the 415, 425 & 440 there isn’t a lot of cost difference is there a lot of performance difference? The LSA seems to really fit but no one seems to have a set up for a sand car yet. Being the guinepig could be expensive. 

What do you know?

What do you think? 

What have you done?

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The general rule is "there is no substitute for cubic inches" With LS engines as soon as you say "stroker" the internal component cost between a 415, 427, 440 is about the same. The external costs of bigger heads, and larger injectors etc. do add to the cost. 

The bigger cubic inch supplies Torque - thats always a plus in the dunes and if you will fill those 5 seats, you will like the TQ  rule two "torque moves the mass, HP keeps it moving" . 

 This is the reason more and more people are going the forced induction route. 

From what I have built and helped build, the happiest people have lower revving Big Cubic inch supercharged  and Turbo cars. Followed by bigger inch engines, and lastly smaller higher revving cars.

The spend is always the issue. But also generally the more "handy your are" the more you can save. Going the CBM or Turnkey route is almost a guarantee of satisfaction as you get a tested and proven configuration. 

Other routes can save you money, but be prepared to own more of the build... FWIW

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Spend the 2 extra grand and get a S4D. 

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There was a build thread on another site that was pretty mild iirc with a LSA on it and it put down 680 to the wheels.  I know CBM had the LSA blowers at a pretty cheap price recently.

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38 minutes ago, 1newbie said:

There was a build thread on another site that was pretty mild iirc with a LSA on it and it put down 680 to the wheels.  I know CBM had the LSA blowers at a pretty cheap price recently.

I'd love to see the build details.  I've never seen one make that kind of power.  The LSA superchargers don't move enough air for a big cube LS engine.

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1 hour ago, DZRTRUN said:

Spend the 2 extra grand and get a S4D. 

I second this

 

Call Jason Alper for the motor build .  A lot of board members have used him with great success.  He can walk you through the pluses and minuses of each motor and cost

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Funco has used many LSA engines I do believe. I would do a LSA. They can be had for 12k with computer and belt setup. Look at the cts forums they are making good power. I would think 600 at wheels would be stronger than any other engine you listed. 

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402, 415, 438 are good combinations. For reliability I would stick to 4" stroke max on s LS2 (402)  or LS3(415). Going to a LS7 block with longer cylinders I would stick to max 4.100 stroke(438). This will keep the pistons more stable. You could build a 438 LS7 with wet sump and LS3 top end pretty reasonable. Personally I like the natural aspirated pump gas motors. 

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1 hour ago, hondajimz said:

X2 - I'm sure this would move your car very nicely.

I guess I need to call Bruce and see what’s needed to make it a turnkey. I do have 555 all aluminum BBC but I think the LS based motor would be better. 

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6 hours ago, fmyth said:

I'd love to see the build details.  I've never seen one make that kind of power.  The LSA superchargers don't move enough air for a big cube LS engine.

Yes me too - 

That SC is far too small and too inefficient to make reliably over 6 Lbs boost on a 6L

too many issues with belt slippage in the dunes with the small pulley and too much heat soak

Nice little SC for your truck or street car

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10 hours ago, Hondo said:

402, 415, 438 are good combinations. For reliability I would stick to 4" stroke max on s LS2 (402)  or LS3(415). Going to a LS7 block with longer cylinders I would stick to max 4.100 stroke(438). This will keep the pistons more stable. You could build a 438 LS7 with wet sump and LS3 top end pretty reasonable. Personally I like the natural aspirated pump gas motors. 

I've been researching the same question, and it seems the "general" recommendation for a reasonable power and reliability is this. I had just about settled on the 440 but there seems to be some concern (in the street/drag world anyway) about the LS7 block being susceptible to cracked cylinders. Which is of course solved with the aftermarket blocks. I don't recall any carnage threads here with someone having a grenaded 440, is this more of an internet myth than reality?

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1 word. 

 

Blower.

 

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18 hours ago, fmyth said:

I'd love to see the build details.  I've never seen one make that kind of power.  The LSA superchargers don't move enough air for a big cube LS engine.

Get ahold of Punisher.  :)

You would be surprised.

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This is the ever on going question.  ENGINE AND TRANS COMBO , it usually equates to 35% of any given build  

 

I spend more time talking engines then the whole rest of the car it seems.

To answer a few questions

 

No we don't see LS7 440 block problems

LSA a lot of bang for the buck  for a DIY guy with room to grow  down the road ,  Probably not a great buy if your using an engine guy.  I have a lot of Michigan guys using them  and a few Glamis guys but they were all DIY

For my personal driving duning style  LS7 440 4.0 whipple hits the mark plenty of power and reliable. but blows the pennywise budget.  

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The lsa is a smaller 1.9l blower but it packs a pretty good punch. I'm running 9.5 lbs of boost ish. The insane benefit for dunes specifically is it makes max tq at 3800rpm. You will not get that with a big rotor blower. Most wait til 4500-5000 to make Max boost from what I have seen and the guys in our group. Granted if you go to the drags it does run out at 5500 rpm but if you are a duner there is no replacement for a Max tq hit at 3800rpm....  My motor is a fully built 408.  Heads are cnc as well. 

Edited by Punisher550

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5 hours ago, BeachHead said:

I've been researching the same question, and it seems the "general" recommendation for a reasonable power and reliability is this. I had just about settled on the 440 but there seems to be some concern (in the street/drag world anyway) about the LS7 block being susceptible to cracked cylinders. Which is of course solved with the aftermarket blocks. I don't recall any carnage threads here with someone having a grenaded 440, is this more of an internet myth than reality?

I blew up my stock bottom end motor in my c6 z06. All it had was ported heads with new valves and springs and a nice healthy cam. 

I ended up cracking a sleeve in the stock block and breaking a piston. 

 

The reason most people dont see a problem with the 440 cubic inch motor is they are sleeved. I bought a brand new ls2 block already Darton sleeved from Steve and RED(they do all darton sleeve installs) and had him punch it out for my 454 stroker motor I made out of it.

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If you have any questions feel free to call me or Bruce. We have a few LSA superchargers still. But like most people are saying if you want a 400+CI the LSA will run out of air. The 2.9L Whipple works well on 415CI or 425CI and cost a couple thousand more. Lots of options out there just gotta figure out what you want. We can also get you a crate LSA if thats what you wanna do.

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1 hour ago, GRANT@FUNCO said:

This is the ever on going question.  ENGINE AND TRANS COMBO , it usually equates to 35% of any given build  

 

I spend more time talking engines then the whole rest of the car it seems.

To answer a few questions

 

No we don't see LS7 440 block problems

LSA a lot of bang for the buck  for a DIY guy with room to grow  down the road ,  Probably not a great buy if your using an engine guy.  I have a lot of Michigan guys using them  and a few Glamis guys but they were all DIY

For my personal driving duning style  LS7 440 4.0 whipple hits the mark plenty of power and reliable. but blows the pennywise budget.  

Thanks Grant...here I thought I had it all figured out...now, back to the drawing board..LOL

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this is my take on it

415 pretty good average power, least amount of work super super reliable, really good power with ls3 heads,

425 make much more torque, really about a 2 season motor and then start slowly going down hill in stock blocks due to the piston having huge rock, and coming out the bottom, but you get to act cool and say you have a 425

the 440 from us is as reliable as the 415 because or for the 909 crew cause, we use Darton Dry sleeve, the sleeve is .500 longer than stock so even on a 4.100 crank it does not come out the bottom, has as much piston support as the factory ls7, this is a $1900 upgrade from us to have the block sleeved, we can do this to any LS block, Any block

on Instagram we are building 2 440 at the same time and have done about 4 this month

for the same price you can go bigger up to the 454 but it will use cometic head gaskets, sometimes they leak you need a R58 or better on the block or the heads so its got to have a great finish to work with the 440-443 it will still use the factory ls7 head gaskets, to me that is a long term motor, using the LS3 heads over the LS7 will loose a little power but the GM LS3 heads last a very long time with the stock valves and the correct spring geometry  

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10 hours ago, BeachHead said:

Thanks Grant...here I thought I had it all figured out...now, back to the drawing board..LOL

I like the LS7 block new, but have done a couple of used blocks that where pulled out of a vette, and 2 had cracked sleeves, if you can find a full car, the extra parts can pay for the build, we do our LS7 as a wet sump like a factory ls1 and sell all the dry sump components

 

also for example just picked up a 5.3 aluminum block for $200 then darton sleeves now I have a block with sleeves .250 longer than a ls7, and sleeved 10 times stronger than a ls7, out the door decked and sleeved for 2k,

Edited by J Alper

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I am fan of NA engines especially when you find a builder that's good i just wanted say i have a 402 i have ran for 7 seasons with no issue what so ever and just last season i took the CNC 243 heads off and put on CNC LSA heads and a custom grind cam fast 102 with a 92TB and it woke it up it made 500rwhp at redline its been a great reliable engine and i use it too i am  in the middle of building a NA 463 using a RHS tall deck and i have already pushed the 20k mark and not done yet i am a believer of do it right the first time don't cheap out

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1 hour ago, neil450 said:

I am fan of NA engines especially when you find a builder that's good i just wanted say i have a 402 i have ran for 7 seasons with no issue what so ever and just last season i took the CNC 243 heads off and put on CNC LSA heads and a custom grind cam fast 102 with a 92TB and it woke it up it made 500rwhp at redline its been a great reliable engine and i use it too i am  in the middle of building a NA 463 using a RHS tall deck and i have already pushed the 20k mark and not done yet i am a believer of do it right the first time don't cheap out

words to live by,

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If you haven't driven a blower car and you are a duner there is really no replacement. 

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