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John@Outfront Mtrsprts

So it begins, My Gen 5 summer 2018 conversion, Outfront Style

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Throw a four piston on the front and try it out ? I recently got new front-end and the spindles they came with already  had a 6-piston  caliper mount from the previous car they were on (a class 10 buggy) had to cut them off and put a gear one four piston to match existing rears, now all four corners are the same . Picture is the six piston setup I took off it was trophy truck stuff imo.

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cant do that big rotor, too much weight! :)  still have your 6 pistons calipers?  for sale?  

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No they are gone,I do have the weld on mounts I cut off from them, like 3/8" thick if I remember right.

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On 2/13/2019 at 11:41 AM, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

cant do that big rotor, too much weight! :)  still have your 6 pistons calipers?  for sale?  

Can you swap for vented rotors to just increase heat capacity?

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21 hours ago, Rockwood said:

Can you swap for vented rotors to just increase heat capacity?

Slot in front Caliper  for disc wont allow a thicker disc (at least not a vented one),  I already have made plans to make a 10.5 to 11" disc.  It will be 3/8" mild steel. Blanchard ground to 5/16. Current disc is only 9" and .200 thick.  

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1 hour ago, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

Slot in front Caliper  for disc wont allow a thicker disc (at least not a vented one),  I already have made plans to make a 10.5 to 11" disc.  It will be 3/8" mild steel. Blanchard ground to 5/16. Current disc is only 9" and .200 thick.  

Nice. 

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Seen you out duning Friday, john. we were stopped watching you guys heading across the valley before getting into the dunes behind Olds that early afternoon. Car looked good, could pick that green out from miles away.

But i thought you said you drive fast? :sdiva:

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I saw it parked in front of the store Friday morning at about 10 on my way in...…...I could see it from Osborne.

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1 hour ago, spize909 said:

I saw it parked in front of the store Friday morning at about 10 on my way in...…...I could see it from Osborne.

yeah, I truly have had people tell me they can spot my car from 5+ miles away parked on the top of a dune!  I love that color.  Yeah this last weekend from Thursdays at noon to sat at noon we drove 252 miles, Friday was 4- 30+ mile runs (one was about 55 miles, went to duners diner and duned on the way back)  It was the best weekend of the year IMHO. I did get better fuel economy this trip at just under 3 miles per gallon!

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On 2/16/2019 at 8:23 PM, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

Slot in front Caliper  for disc wont allow a thicker disc (at least not a vented one),  I already have made plans to make a 10.5 to 11" disc.  It will be 3/8" mild steel. Blanchard ground to 5/16. Current disc is only 9" and .200 thick.  

Nice.

 

I spot something green going by ..............  https://www.facebook.com/cortniqueenglamis.rench/videos/600451640426408/

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Posted (edited)

So I still have 3 more trips planned but had to know the answer to my brake questions, my car was on the lift so I pulled off one hub.  the front brake discs on the gen4 and 5 is a  9" rotor, this is a small disc, it may have been enough back 10+ years ago when all the gen 4s and 5 had 30" implement tires, but with the introduction to the M/T tires that are 33" tall, it has made the brakes at least 10% less effective.  most people don't realize but the radius of the tire makes a direct effect on the brake power. its like using a longer ratchet when loosening a bolt, simply more leverage.  there are many reasons to have a larger diameter disc.  more surface area, more heat dissipation, better leverage, the only negative would be the bigger it is,  the more exposed it is,  and the caliper is closer to the rim.  Just like your mountain bikes, once the rims went from 26" to 29" the disc must get bigger in diameter to net the same braking force.

30" to 33" is a 10% increase, so all cars that had 100% of braking before with implements, now have 90% with the M/T tire.  On top of that the brake pad is not in full contact with the rotor, look at the pics and see that there is a lot of surface area missing between the bolt holes,  that equals less brake and more heat!  I found a 10" rotor that bolts right onto the factory Funco hub!!!  the pics of the brakes on both discs show the new caliper location in respect to the wheel.  I could even have an 11" disc custom made that will put the caliper .5" closer to the wheel as still have almost .9" from caliper to the reinforcing ring with the 10" installed.

the new disc will allow for  100% brake pads contact with the whole surface.  the only thing I need to do now is make a new caliper support bracket, cut off the old one and weld the new one on.  with some luck this might happen before my last trip so I could test it before the summer begins.  I will put in the most aggressive brake pad too.  if this still is not enough, the options are 11" rotor or 4 piston calipers, regardless the 10" disc is at least in the right direction to my brake fading issues at high sustained speeds.

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Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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id go with 4 piston calipers as well.  then you wouldnt have to use such an aggressive pad.  11' rotor and 4 piston gear ones on my car and they lock up a 37" tire.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Kevin said:

id go with 4 piston calipers as well.  then you wouldnt have to use such an aggressive pad.  11' rotor and 4 piston gear ones on my car and they lock up a 37" tire.

the concern with the 11" rotor is the BC (bolt circle) that the hub is mounted to.  most 11 rotors are mounted to a hub with a much larger bolt circle for stability and run out.

I am always thinking of weight (and money) .  if this set up I do with 10" rotors and small calipers can lock up my 33's,  then that's all I want.  Think about how cheap and easy of an upgrade this would be... 2 discs and 2 weld on brackets and your time.  you could reuse your same calipers!  

if not, then I will redo it and put 4 piston calipers.  and you will all know what works! but that adds another $500 to the equation

 

Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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35 minutes ago, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

the concern with the 11" rotor is the BC (bolt circle) that the hub is mounted to.  most 11 rotors are mounted to a hub with a much larger bolt circle for stability and run out.

I am always thinking of weight (and money) .  if this set up I do with 10" rotors and small calipers can lock up my 33's,  then that's all I want.  Think about how cheap and easy of an upgrade this would be... 2 discs and 2 weld on brackets and your time.  you could reuse your same calipers!  

if not, then I will redo it and put 4 piston calipers.  and you will all know what works! but that adds another $500 to the equation

 

i only referenced the 11" and 4 piston as thats what i have and what their performance has been with the big ass tire i run.

id make a bracket that had the potential to accomodate a 4 piston in the future if needed with a little modification vs cutting and rewelding again if the dual piston wasnt enough. just a thought to save time possibly in the future.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kevin said:

i only referenced the 11" and 4 piston as thats what i have and what their performance has been with the big ass tire i run.

id make a bracket that had the potential to accomodate a 4 piston in the future if needed with a little modification vs cutting and rewelding again if the dual piston wasnt enough. just a thought to save time possibly in the future.

great idea!  but not possible, the tabs/ears that would hold the smaller 2 piston caliper that I have would hit the body of the 4 piston calipers.  I like the way you are thinking.

here is the proposed tab. it will be made from 1/4", current is 3/16 and im not liking only having 3 or 4 threads in that plate!

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Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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well next trip  4-4 to 4-6 I will have my new 10" front brake discs.  Full metallic hawk pads.  Report to follow.  If all goes well and im happy with the performance I will chrome the knuckle assy this summer.  if not I will cut them off and go four piston units

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Saw the green machine this morning in Anaheim off La Palma, you can’t miss that color 👍

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Looks good.

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On 3/12/2019 at 9:20 AM, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

30" to 33" is a 10% increase, so all cars that had 100% of braking before with implements, now have 90% with the M/T tire.

It's actually worse than that since rotating inertia is a square of the radius.  30 to a 33 is a 21% increase in rotational energy.  Luckily, brake leverage works the same way. :bigrin 

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18 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

It's actually worse than that since rotating inertia is a square of the radius.  30 to a 33 is a 21% increase in rotational energy.  Luckily, brake leverage works the same way. :bigrin 

So what you are saying is that even though my tire diameter and my brake rotor went up by 10%,....the rotational inertia went up by 21% .  doing the math your way then means my braking power went up by 23%, even better.   cool!  then on top of that I have 100% pad to rotor contact where the previous disc and pad had lots of time "off the rotor" and then i'm going from a stock polymatrix pad to a full metallic on top of that.  i'm guessing i'm going to have a 30-40% better braking action from the front brakes than before.  if its too aggressive I can adjust the balance bar for my brake master cylinder bias. 

Lots don't know of the advantage of having dual master cylinders.  if you only have one master and anything blows--you will lose all your brakes.  if you have duals and one blows at least you will have two tires that still have brakes.  note the shaft with lots of tread on both sides of the master.  Inside this tube is a ball on the shaft.  as you adjust the ball more to the right then the right master will apply more pressure than the left (brake bias).  If I now have too much front braking I can shift the ball to the rear master to enhance my entire barking experience :point:What that means is I can drive even faster Woot Woot!

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

So what you are saying is that even though my tire diameter and my brake rotor went up by 10%,....the rotational inertia went up by 21% .  doing the math your way then means my braking power went up by 23%, even better.   cool!  then on top of that I have 100% pad to rotor contact where the previous disc and pad had lots of time "off the rotor" and then i'm going from a stock polymatrix pad to a full metallic on top of that.  i'm guessing i'm going to have a 30-40% better braking action from the front brakes than before.  if its too aggressive I can adjust the balance bar for my brake master cylinder bias. 

Lots don't know of the advantage of having dual master cylinders.  if you only have one master and anything blows--you will lose all your brakes.  if you have duals and one blows at least you will have two tires that still have brakes.  note the shaft with lots of tread on both sides of the master.  Inside this tube is a ball on the shaft.  as you adjust the ball more to the right then the right master will apply more pressure than the left (brake bias).  If I now have too much front braking I can shift the ball to the rear master to enhance my entire barking experience :point:What that means is I can drive even faster Woot Woot!

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Whoops.  I misspoke now that I re-read it.  Leverage from your brakes is 1:1 ratio from clamp load to radius. Brakes are more than just levers though, so the performance increase from a wider radius is more than just the math says.  Brake feel, leverage, thermal mass, etc, all work together to make effective brakes.  For example, adding 10% to the volume of the rotor by increasing thickness isn't nearly as effective as increasing radius, since the brakes not only have more heat capacity, they have more surface area to dissipate heat and have to work less to accomplish the same braking power.  Less heat input, more thermal mass, more rejection, etc.  

Edited by Rockwood

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4 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

Whoops.  I misspoke now that I re-read it.  Leverage from your brakes is 1:1 ratio from clamp load to radius. Brakes are more than just levers though, so the performance increase from a wider radius is more than just the math says.  Brake feel, leverage, thermal mass, etc, all work together to make effective brakes.  For example, adding 10% to the volume of the rotor by increasing thickness isn't nearly as effective as increasing radius, since the brakes not only have more heat capacity, they have more surface area to dissipate heat and have to work less to accomplish the same braking power.  Less heat input, more thermal mass, more rejection, etc.  

Nerd!!!!!

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, jtmoney714 said:

Nerd!!!!!

I'm Asian.  Did I have a choice? :bigrin 

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Edited by Rockwood

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Posted (edited)

I wont make this racial,  some engineers just cant relate.................................................:rbj:

folks what we can gain from Rockwoods comments regardless of his numbers is im still gonna have way better brakes than before!

Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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