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John@Outfront Mtrsprts

So it begins, My Gen 5 summer 2018 conversion, Outfront Style

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On 7/17/2018 at 6:14 PM, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

Here is the spring at full lift, the thick aluminum spacer represents lift, on this cam that's .410" of lift for a stage 1

other pics of exhaust system progressing. I am not a fan of recirculating the wastegate exhaust but in this case I will because it will help support the long tail pipe with v band clamp.

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It’s hard to tell in that picture but that looks like a 44 mm wastegate. If it is, I would buy the 66 mm wastegate now and save yourself the heart ache of boost creep problems. The new precision gen 2 turbo is crazy efficient and was impossible to control on my car and a buddies car without the 66mm wastegates. My car did 18 psi with a 6lb springs with the 44mm wastegates and constantly spiked to 25psi. Everything is now perfect with the 66mm wastegates. 

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17 minutes ago, DZRTRUN said:

It’s hard to tell in that picture but that looks like a 44 mm wastegate. If it is, I would buy the 66 mm wastegate now and save yourself the heart ache of boost creep problems. The new precision gen 2 turbo is crazy efficient and was impossible to control on my car and a buddies car without the 66mm wastegates. My car did 18 psi with a 6lb springs with the 44mm wastegates and constantly spiked to 25psi. Everything is now perfect with the 66mm wastegates. 

that could be possible, and would be a big heart ache, This area is uncharted territory with this motor, my low boost will be 10psi, tell me more about your set ups that required that? were they TT V8's?  exhaust flows are considerably different.  I have had super crazy efficient turbos before where you could take the whole wastegate off and still have boost issues  HAHA. Never this combo

All that being said, my 44 did fine with a gen 1, 3076 Garret, this is close to the same flow but now gen 2. It will have a redline at 8000RPM (or slightly higher) that may be an issue but the engine size may be way different than yours. Give me more info. Personally I would find it hard to believe that with a 1.75" exhaust leak that I would still be overboosting.  Do you have pics of what you were running?
 

I love the input from all you guys too!

 

Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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1 hour ago, Dirtywhiteboy said:

Cant wait to see this bad boy in action. Beautiful engineering John.

I was thinking the same Craig.  Some of the things im doing you could never justify. this exhaust will be 15 hours when done, the frenched rear lights, flanges, and painstaking grinding and fitment will be $300 parts and maybe 6 hours.  I have been fighting over the rear cage couplers too. the typical 1.5" tube clamps cant work as I will have compound angles, so today found a trick coupler from Grant that they are using on their UTV cages. 1.5" x .095 but they look like my stock rhino cage couplers. I think it will work out nice

Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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10 minutes ago, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

that could be possible, and would be a big heart ache, This area is uncharted territory with this motor, my low boost will be 10psi, tell me more about your set ups that required that? were they TT V8's?  exhaust flows are considerably different.  I have had super crazy efficient turbos before where you could take the whole wastegate off and still have boost issues  HAHA. Never this combo

All that being said, my 44 did fine with a gen 1, 3076 Garret, this is close to the same flow but now gen 2. It will have a redline at 8000RPM (or slightly higher) that may be an issue but the engine size may be way different than yours. Give me more info

Yep, mine is a TT LSA so 6.2 liter. Redline used the 44’s on the gen 1 turbos and they worked fine. They didn’t work at all on the gen 2’s. You may be fine but we had no luck on multiple motors without the big boy wastegates. I also included a pic of my turbo model. 

 

 

 

 

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some crazy things possible with only this motor:  my rear engine bay is only 17.5 inches long with really full engine access, the intercooler and aluminum work around it will only take 10 min to remove and have full access from top of engine, tranny, turbo and wastgegate.  it's hard to see the rear cage bar up high on the second pic but with 29" tires it is only 13" past the rear tires, with 32" tires that I run that will be under 12" of what hangs past the tire.  now go and measure your V8 cars and tell me this dimension?  That is what makes this car absolutely crazy to drive!

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1 hour ago, DZRTRUN said:

Yep, mine is a TT LSA so 6.2 liter. Redline used the 44’s on the gen 1 turbos and they worked fine. They didn’t work at all on the gen 2’s. You may be fine but we had no luck on multiple motors without the big boy wastegates. I also included a pic of my turbo model. 

 

 

 

 

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I think that is my exact turbo, you are pushing 3.1 liters per turbo, I am 3.2 liters with one turbo but the pulses are different as you have 4 big pulses per turbo per cycle, I have 6 smaller (smoother) pulses per cycle.  but I will ne revving higher than you do and that's where it might bite me. I will do some extra research before the WG goes on, Thanks

 

what is your max HP with that setup?

Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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19 minutes ago, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

some crazy things possible with only this motor:  my rear engine bay is only 17.5 inches long with really full engine access, the intercooler and aluminum work around it will only take 10 min to remove and have full access from top of engine, tranny, turbo and wastgegate.  it's hard to see the rear cage bar up high on the second pic but with 29" tires it is only 13" past the rear tires, with 32" tires that I run that will be under 12" of what hangs past the tire.  now go and measure your V8 cars and tell me this dimension?  That is what makes this car absolutely crazy to drive!

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What rear tire do you run? Our Gen 5 we have the Sport tire of America 14.50 x 17 it has a ton of clearance with the dry sump LS7 but still not where your at. I'd measure it but it's still stranded at my buddy's house in Utah. 

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Manifold design has a lot to do with boost control as well. With a really efficient turbo, you need to build the manifold for wastegate priority (straight shot to the wastegate). Most wastegates have a 90* exit, and asking it to also enter at 90* to bypass the turbo is too much. 

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5 minutes ago, SANDPSYCHO said:

What rear tire do you run? Our Gen 5 we have the Sport tire of America 14.50 x 17 it has a ton of clearance with the dry sump LS7 but still not where your at. I'd measure it but it's still stranded at my buddy's house in Utah. 

I run 1650×15   32" diameter. please do measure when you can

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5 minutes ago, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

I run 1650×15   32" diameter. please do measure when you can

I will but it won't be until mid to late August when I can get back up and repair my trailer and get it home.

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54 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

Manifold design has a lot to do with boost control as well. With a really efficient turbo, you need to build the manifold for wastegate priority (straight shot to the wastegate). Most wastegates have a 90* exit, and asking it to also enter at 90* to bypass the turbo is too much. 

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Personally I would rather build an exhaust with "turbo priority" and have a larger wastegate mounted 120degress from flow. After all we are after quickest spool rather than fastest exit through a wastegate right? if it just takes 1 size bigger wastegate to accomplish this,  I would do it that way.  Then the exhaust flow is un-interrupted by the wastegates' exit. Air is amazing quick to change directions, fuel not so much. This would be fun stuff to test on an engine dyno.  Most of you probably don't know but I bought a $120k engine dyno from Mike @ Mendeola about 10 years ago, brand new, has never been used. 2500HP DTS engine dyno with 32 data channels, sound proof enclosure and high frequency fans that can simulate atmospheric conditions. Sorry to say I have never had the time or space to set it up. I am working on that though!  It would be interesting to do exactly what Rockwood is saying and do some research. There are a lot of things going on in a header, compressible flow, temperature, etc  sometimes its just easier to test it in the real world (at least for me) :) 

 

Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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23 minutes ago, SANDPSYCHO said:

I will but it won't be until mid to late August when I can get back up and repair my trailer and get it home.

my guess is that there is 2.5 to 3 feet from back of tire to back of cage, if anyone is measuring please state tire diameter

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9 hours ago, DZRTRUN said:

Yep, mine is a TT LSA so 6.2 liter. Redline used the 44’s on the gen 1 turbos and they worked fine. They didn’t work at all on the gen 2’s. You may be fine but we had no luck on multiple motors without the big boy wastegates. I also included a pic of my turbo model. 

 

 

 

 

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While I had some free time I did this math regarding boost creep and wastegate: a 1.75" (44mm) wastegate with an  opened piston has 2.35 sq inches of opening. taking the perimeter of a 2.25" tube (my tube size right before the turbo) would require my clamp to fall off and separate my turbo from the header by .33" and still make boost. that is like pulling the turbo more than 5/16" away and still have boost creep! stated that way, it doesn't seem possible.  Ill let you know what I find

Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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11 hours ago, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

Personally I would rather build an exhaust with "turbo priority" and have a larger wastegate mounted 120degress from flow. After all we are after quickest spool rather than fastest exit through a wastegate right? if it just takes 1 size bigger wastegate to accomplish this,  I would do it that way.  Then the exhaust flow is un-interrupted by the wastegates' exit. Air is amazing quick to change directions, fuel not so much. This would be fun stuff to test on an engine dyno.  Most of you probably don't know but I bought a $120k engine dyno from Mike @ Mendeola about 10 years ago, brand new, has never been used. 2500HP DTS engine dyno with 32 data channels, sound proof enclosure and high frequency fans that can simulate atmospheric conditions. Sorry to say I have never had the time or space to set it up. I am working on that though!  It would be interesting to do exactly what Rockwood is saying and do some research. There are a lot of things going on in a header, compressible flow, temperature, etc  sometimes its just easier to test it in the real world (at least for me) :) 

 

This is what I learned from my Honeywell/Garrett engineer buddy. Designed like that with smooth transitions, there really isn’t much loss in spool since the flow to the wastegate backs up and becomes a barrier anyway. 

On boost (peak HP), you’re bypassing a LOT of exhaust, so you generally gain power routing this way because it behaves more like an open header. The turbo sucks for flow anyway, so the minor bottleneck that is the 90* to the turbo isn’t terrible. 

I’ll see if he wants to write an article about it. 

Edited by Rockwood

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12 hours ago, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

While I had some free time I did this math regarding boost creep and wastegate: a 1.75" (44mm) wastegate with an  opened piston has 2.35 sq inches of opening. taking the perimeter of a 2.25" tube (my tube size right before the turbo) would require my clamp to fall off and separate my turbo from the header by .33" and still make boost. that is like pulling the turbo more than 5/16" away and still have boost creep! stated that way, it doesn't seem possible.  Ill let you know what I find

how much restriction does the plunger inside the wastegate cause? or does it pretty much get out of the way of the air flow? always thought they were like an intake or exhaust valve in operation so the head would create a restriction. 

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18 minutes ago, Chevy1925 said:

how much restriction does the plunger inside the wastegate cause? or does it pretty much get out of the way of the air flow? always thought they were like an intake or exhaust valve in operation so the head would create a restriction. 

Excellent question, unlike a port in a head where increased air flow and speed  is a goal, so port size and shape is critical, the valve stem is "in the way" of the in and out of the air/fuel mixture.  this is because the valves open into the combustion chamber.  A wastegate is opposite, the valve moves "out" of the way, so the stem is really not involved or impeding the flow. You will also note by my finger that the body of the wastegate is bulged (because the shape of its "port" is not critical for velocity) in a way that allows the full 44mm Sq inches of flow to not be restricted

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Oh i see! thanks John for info. :bigrin

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I sent a letter to my Tech guy at Tial and here is his response below:

I removed irrelevant parts you all don't need to see :) 

Hi, John,

 
That aside, the big difference between the GT3076R and the PTE unit is based on turbine wheel dimension (assuming A/R is similar between the two), with the GT having a 60/56mm wheel, and the PTE having a wheel of 71/61mm.   
 
That additional turbine swallowing capacity is going to place less of a flow requirement on the wastegate, meaning, you won't need as much wastegate flow to achieve the same, or even slightly more, power, than you did before.  Basically, you should have enough wastegate flow to get that job done without any issues.  
 
I would not expect for you to have any issues with boost rise or boost creep, but I would strongly recommend that you arrange your wastegate control strategy to regulate pressure to both sides of the diaphragm and control the upper chamber with your boost control solenoid, as this will allow you to receive full valve travel at all times, without risk of hysteresis, which is the root cause of boost rise or boost creep.
 
More often than not, when we become aware of these sorts of symptoms, the control strategy being used is of an 'interruption' design, with a solenoid or controller interrupting the signal to the lower chamber of the wastegate only, with the upper chamber left to vent to atmosphere.
Since this strategy essentially bleeds off pressure (and pneumatic energy) from the wastegate in order to delay opening, valve travel is often compromised, resulting in hysteresis, and, as well, the symptom commonly referred to as 'boost creep'.

Neither strategy is 'wrong', but for best results, we do recommend regulation vs. interruption, especially if wastegate flow is critical, such as on large-displacement, low-boost applications like yours.
 
Please let me know if this is helpful, and, as well, if I can be of any further assistance to you.
 
Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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what he is referring to is that there are two ways to control boost, one is a simple device electric on manual, that fits in the single hose to a wastegate. this is less desirable.  the two port, or using both top and bottom chambers is a better way. Any time I install an electronic boost control we use both chambers. I replied to his email above with more precise info and that I always use a 2 chamber controller.  he gave me some other good advise and a website to "prove to myself" that my wastegate is large enough.  something for me to do in my free time right?

Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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1 hour ago, Rockwood said:

This is what I learned from my Honeywell/Garrett engineer buddy. Designed like that with smooth transitions, there really isn’t much loss in spool since the flow to the wastegate backs up and becomes a barrier anyway. 

On boost (peak HP), you’re bypassing a LOT of exhaust, so you generally gain power routing this way because it behaves more like an open header. The turbo sucks for flow anyway, so the minor bottleneck that is the 90* to the turbo isn’t terrible. 

I’ll see if he wants to write an article about it. 

cool!

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Great thread!

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part 2 from Tial Tech, this will be the site I will be playing around with:

Hi, John,

 
Based on your description, I do not believe that you'll have any issue with wastegate flow, especially given the additional turbine flow.  That's a healthy bump in flow, and you're not asking for a massive increase in power over your previous setup.
 
I'm not sure I can respond to the suggestion of 'square inches' being the same as a .330 hole in the manifold, except to say that there is more to wastegate flow than just a hole.  
 
Although it doesn't correlate 'directly' to your turbocharger design, I have found success using the BorgWarner MatchBot software, which you can access online for free, at:http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarket/matchbot.aspx
 
It is extremely accurate as it pertains to calculating compressor and turbine flow.  Although, again, the data relates directly to their own turbo products, you can interpret rotor group sizes and housing A/R pretty clearly to determine not just the WG percentage, but, as well, the actual WG port diameter, using that software.  Just keep in mind that BorgWarner refers to turbine wheel size in inducer, as opposed to exducer, so you're probably going to be wise in viewing data for both their "74" and "70"mm turbines, as the PTE turbine falls somewhat between those two sizes.
 
It's not a bad idea to play around with that a bit to see what it yields, but I would say, prove to yourself first that you really do need a larger wastegate before making the move.  Besides the obvious cost involved, you would have the fabrication challenges associated with modifying the manifold for larger WG inlet and outlet tubing, as well as the WG itself being quite a bit larger, physically, than the unit in place currently.  
 
The boost controller, as well, should be capable of manipulating WG duty cycle pretty accurately, especially as you have it connected, so again, my suggestion would be to prove the need first.  
 
Let me know how you progress with the project, of course.

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Garrett has something similar:

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/boostadviser

BW’s EFR series are awesome turbos. I really like the integrated WG and BOV models for tight packaging applications. 

Another cool new development when it finally hits the aftermarket is DualBoost:

https://motoiq.com/the-secret-turbo-in-the-ring-slaying-porsche-919-evo-honeywell-garrett-dualboost-for-gasoline-turbocharger/

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Some pics of the final cage, there will be one more lower bar with a tow tab (as I tow a lot!)  these tube clamps are not the traditional hand shake style but came from Funco, they have less shear but use larger bolts. originally I was going to have to have the Funco units as the two rear cage bars were at a compound angle to one another, but then  I put a little upper bend at the top of the tubes and made them come into one plane. this would have allowed me to use the other style. but im liking the Funco units.  They use them for the UTV cages they do.  I thank you all about 3 months ago when I was looking at other cage options, as I would have picked something different, but this came out simple and sexy!  Care was taken to clock the cage bolts exactly straight back for a sano look.

As far as the wastegate selection, the web sites I visited really just talked about turbo sizing, not wastegate choice.  I will be staying/trying the MVR 44mm unit even though in the future the motor will even be bigger displacement. I feel it will work great.  Rockwood, that Ceramic turbine wheel sounds awesome, but not for me--too fragile for what I do.

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Edited by John@Outfront Mtrsprts

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Great work John, thanks for sharing and the tech info

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