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JDMeister

Out Of D.E.F.? What To Do?

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For what I paid for my truck, I'm not gonna risk it.

When it says I need DEF..I go get DEF, I put in DEF!

I wanna make a new company that sells it though.

LEPPARD DEF! "It Rocks!"

:lmao:

:bag:

 

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Wow...interesting.  2 of our 3 diesels in our house don't require DEF. But our 13 Cayenne diesel does,not sure I'm willing to risk expensive repairs to save $5.00-$10.00 a year.

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basically all they are doing is raising the NOx emission because it's not chemically changing in the burn cycle

def is approx 30% urea and the rest is distilled water, the urea chemically reacts to create water and nitrogen emissions

but YES if you are stuck somewhere and the system wants DEF, and you can't get any. put some water in and get to the store for DEF ASAP

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at the very least, use distilled water

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I would like to see the inside of their DPF after running straight tap water for long periods of time. I’ll stick to my pre-EGR motors with build dates prior to 2000. 

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on my gmc i will get a def quality code 

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Couldn't you just piss in the tank. 

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Living the Deleted def free life in my 2016 Dodge Cummins.

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2 hours ago, D Walker said:

I would like to see the inside of their DPF after running straight tap water for long periods of time. I’ll stick to my pre-EGR motors with build dates prior to 2000. 

You are lucky to have that choice ?

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That is just plain stupidity to think it's ok to use water in the DEF tank. Ultimately the ECM will run a DEF quality test and determine that the NOX emissions are excessive and then it will go into reduced power mode again, with an added bonus of tamper codes being set. That will require a trip to the service dept to have a tech spend 3 or 4 hours to make it right again,  probably to the tune of 600 to 1000 or more. It would have been cheaper to just add DEF when the messages started appearing on the instrument panel.

I always keep a few jugs of fresh DEF in the moho for when it gets less than half a tank. There is no good reason to let it go empty. 

 

 

Edited by fortyfour

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13 hours ago, Racin Jay said:

Living the Deleted def free life in my 2016 Dodge Cummins.

Other than buying some fluid a couple of times a year and having a stupid tank on the truck, are there any actual benefits?  

DPF, IMO, is bullshit.  DEF, on the other hand, actually helps reduce NOx which is a well-documented pollutant.  I'm not a tree-hugger, but I'm not going to purposefully fack up air quality for no reason other than to thumb my nose at laws. :bigrin 

Edited by Rockwood

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2 hours ago, Rockwood said:

Other than buying some fluid a couple of times a year and having a stupid tank on the truck, are there any actual benefits?  

DPF, IMO, is bullshit.  DEF, on the other hand, actually helps reduce NOx which is a well-documented pollutant.  I'm not a tree-hugger, but I'm not going to purposefully fack up air quality for no reason other than to thumb my nose at laws. :bigrin 

yes, 80% of the issues with trucks out there in the LD class are emission related. I have known quite a few people with nothing but emission issues on their trucks, delete it and they have been trouble free for 30-50k thus far. the NOx can easily be controlled with just a diesel cat, its the soot everyone freaks out about and the DEF fluid is there to help burn that out. Running straight water will cause the truck to regen more and kill the life of the DPF as it cant burn out the particulates. GM and ford went to the DEF the same time dodge did as prior to that they were using a 9th injector for diesel fuel to inject fuel into the DPF and cause it to super heat. problem with that was mpg went to shit every time it went into regen. DEF works better in place of diesel anyhow. 

this is a big reason i still have my 02 chevy. no egr, no PCV ran in the intake, no cat, no emissions bs. honestly the EGR isnt all that bad on trucks prior to the 07.5 up DPF emission, its when it mixes with PCV gasses, it creates a hell of a sludge build up in the intake (and i mean nasty 1/2 thick type crap). rerouting the PCV to outside air or blocking the EGR stops that issue. 

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Definitely....

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when your running alot of miles at a time you go thru that shit pretty quick. have put def fluid in the girlfriends truck 3 times this last month approx 10.5 gallons total.

in a pinch id fill it with water, piss in it, whatever you gotta do to get back on the road till you can top it off with fluid.

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I'm assuming it's not illegal to put water in it? Otherwise, I would imagine that the company just got fined up the arse?

Kind of dumb to go public with it.

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2 hours ago, Chevy1925 said:

yes, 80% of the issues with trucks out there in the LD class are emission related. I have known quite a few people with nothing but emission issues on their trucks, delete it and they have been trouble free for 30-50k thus far. the NOx can easily be controlled with just a diesel cat, its the soot everyone freaks out about and the DEF fluid is there to help burn that out. Running straight water will cause the truck to regen more and kill the life of the DPF as it cant burn out the particulates. GM and ford went to the DEF the same time dodge did as prior to that they were using a 9th injector for diesel fuel to inject fuel into the DPF and cause it to super heat. problem with that was mpg went to shit every time it went into regen. DEF works better in place of diesel anyhow. 

this is a big reason i still have my 02 chevy. no egr, no PCV ran in the intake, no cat, no emissions bs. honestly the EGR isnt all that bad on trucks prior to the 07.5 up DPF emission, its when it mixes with PCV gasses, it creates a hell of a sludge build up in the intake (and i mean nasty 1/2 thick type crap). rerouting the PCV to outside air or blocking the EGR stops that issue. 

Let me set the record straight on Duramax diesel exhaust aftertreatment and how it works.  All of the diesel engines on the marketr right now have very similar systems. What was stated in the quote above is innacurate.  This is aftertreatment in a nutshell, there are too many things to even begin to discuss.

DEF is metered very precisely into the front half of the DPF unit which is called the SCR (selective catalyst) to reduce the NOX (oxides of nitrogen) content of the exhaust gasses, the ECM uses input from 2 NOX sensors and fuel usage data to determine the correct dosage. The rear half of the DPF unit contains the actual filter which removes physical particulate matter from the exhaust gas. When the ECM determines that the DPF has accumulated about 30g of soot through a series of calculations based on fuel usage and pre/post DPF air pressure sensors, it will initiate a regen event to incinerate the soot from the filter. Incineration has been accomplished a few ways since 07. In early DPF equipped diesels the main injectors would do what was called late post injection, in which the injectors would fire  multiple times during the exhaust stroke to supply unburnt fuel to the DOC (diesel oxydation catalyst) so that it would consume the fuel and get very hot, the exhaust gasses would then carry the heat to the DPF where the soot could be incinerated. In 2011 an indirect injector was added in the turbo down pipe to supply most of the raw fuel, the late post injection method was causing oil dilution issues. The DOC can get up to 1250f during a regen event. DEF is not a hydrocarbon and therefore will not cause combustion, it is only used to chemically reduce NOX emissions.

A tech sometimes has to perform a stationary manual regen for diagnostic purposes, during a regen many things are happening and all of the sensor data can be veiwed on a scan tool. The 4 sensors we look at the most are the 4 exhaust gas temp readings, they are located before and after the DOC and before and after the SRC/DPF unit. When the exhaust gas temp sensor 1 reaches about 550f the indirect injector becomes active and temp sensor 2 will rise at a very fast pace to about 900-1000f, the other 2 sensors further down the line will slowly rise due to the heat that is being generated. After about 20 minutes sensors 2 3 and 4 will all be about 1100-1250f.  If temp sensor 2 does not rise after the indirect injector becomes active we can determine that the indirect injector is not functioning, if temp sensors 3 and 4 rise but 2 stays equal to 1 that indicates the DOC has been compromised and the fuel is being consumed in the DPF, which is bad bad bad.

DEF usage is independant of regen frequency because they do 2 different tasks. Regen frequency is completely dependant on fuel usage, DPF pressure differential values, and calculated soot mass. DEF usage is dependant on fuel usage and pre and post NOX sensor values. Pure water will result in zero NOX reduction and trigger a poor DEF quality message to be displayed. After a few increasing levels of speed reduction, 5mph is what you will end up with. DEF is specifically 32.5% urea and 67.5% distilled water, the ECM's calibrations are not very flexible with this, it has to be this exact concentration or NOX reduction wont take place. It takes us 3 or 4 hours of time to repair a vehicle in this condition and is not covered under warranty. 

If anyone has ever wondered why diesels use an EGR valve, it's because NOX is produced at high combustion temps and the cooled EGR gas will cool the combustion chamber enough to reduce NOX formation. Modern diesel engines make so much power they burn a lot of fuel, the manufacturers had to install all of these devices to get them to meet EPA standards. Other than having some dependability issues these emission systems do work. 

It is not uncommon for diesels to have issues with their indirect injectors and/or their DOCs and allow excessive soot to build up in the DPF. I've seen upwards of 90-100g of soot accumulation, when that happens a code will set and the vehicle will need to be serviced.  Once we get the system repaired a very very long manual regen must take place, sometimes up to an hour. It does burn a lot of fuel to do this. 

Anyways I just wanted to share that,  there is a lot of misinformation that floats around the internet regarding what DEF is and what it does. There is really no reason to ever disable the emission systems on your pickup truck, the air that you are polluting is air that we all have to breath. Diesel emissions are very clean these days. I don't get peoples total disregard for the air we breath. 

FWIW, DEF usage is approx 1% of fuel usage on average. 

Party on Garth!

Edited by fortyfour

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Jam on it! :chew:

 

51-KU97sm+L._SS500.jpg

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I had more F'n problems with the DEF on my '11 dmax.  Poor quality, too low, power cut-off, clogged injector, bad DEF tank heater.  Sold that pig and went Ford...….

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The same suppliers that sell GM their parts also sell them to Ford and Dodge. A good friend of mine works on John Deere tractors and tells me he is out in the field weekly making emission system repairs to tractors too.  Those big sumbitches will go into reduced power and shutdown while plowing a cotton field just like your pickup truck will do when there is a problem with the DEF.  The pusher mohos and big rigs are just the same. The failure to meet the latest emission standards and the unwillingness to retrofit is why Cat no longer makes over the road engines. It ain't just GM, they are all problematic. Look at what VW got themselves into trying to beat the emission standard, lol.

Edited by fortyfour

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10 hours ago, fortyfour said:

Let me set the record straight on Duramax diesel exhaust aftertreatment and how it works.  All of the diesel engines on the marketr right now have very similar systems. What was stated in the quote above is innacurate.  This is aftertreatment in a nutshell, there are too many things to even begin to discuss.

DEF is metered very precisely into the front half of the DPF unit which is called the SCR (selective catalyst) to reduce the NOX (oxides of nitrogen) content of the exhaust gasses, the ECM uses input from 2 NOX sensors and fuel usage data to determine the correct dosage. The rear half of the DPF unit contains the actual filter which removes physical particulate matter from the exhaust gas. When the ECM determines that the DPF has accumulated about 30g of soot through a series of calculations based on fuel usage and pre/post DPF air pressure sensors, it will initiate a regen event to incinerate the soot from the filter. Incineration has been accomplished a few ways since 07. In early DPF equipped diesels the main injectors would do what was called late post injection, in which the injectors would fire  multiple times during the exhaust stroke to supply unburnt fuel to the DOC (diesel oxydation catalyst) so that it would consume the fuel and get very hot, the exhaust gasses would then carry the heat to the DPF where the soot could be incinerated. In 2011 an indirect injector was added in the turbo down pipe to supply most of the raw fuel, the late post injection method was causing oil dilution issues. The DOC can get up to 1250f during a regen event. DEF is not a hydrocarbon and therefore will not cause combustion, it is only used to chemically reduce NOX emissions.

A tech sometimes has to perform a stationary manual regen for diagnostic purposes, during a regen many things are happening and all of the sensor data can be veiwed on a scan tool. The 4 sensors we look at the most are the 4 exhaust gas temp readings, they are located before and after the DOC and before and after the SRC/DPF unit. When the exhaust gas temp sensor 1 reaches about 550f the indirect injector becomes active and temp sensor 2 will rise at a very fast pace to about 900-1000f, the other 2 sensors further down the line will slowly rise due to the heat that is being generated. After about 20 minutes sensors 2 3 and 4 will all be about 1100-1250f.  If temp sensor 2 does not rise after the indirect injector becomes active we can determine that the indirect injector is not functioning, if temp sensors 3 and 4 rise but 2 stays equal to 1 that indicates the DOC has been compromised and the fuel is being consumed in the DPF, which is bad bad bad.

DEF usage is independant of regen frequency because they do 2 different tasks. Regen frequency is completely dependant on fuel usage, DPF pressure differential values, and calculated soot mass. DEF usage is dependant on fuel usage and pre and post NOX sensor values. Pure water will result in zero NOX reduction and trigger a poor DEF quality message to be displayed. After a few increasing levels of speed reduction, 5mph is what you will end up with. DEF is specifically 32.5% urea and 67.5% distilled water, the ECM's calibrations are not very flexible with this, it has to be this exact concentration or NOX reduction wont take place. It takes us 3 or 4 hours of time to repair a vehicle in this condition and is not covered under warranty. 

If anyone has ever wondered why diesels use an EGR valve, it's because NOX is produced at high combustion temps and the cooled EGR gas will cool the combustion chamber enough to reduce NOX formation. Modern diesel engines make so much power they burn a lot of fuel, the manufacturers had to install all of these devices to get them to meet EPA standards. Other than having some dependability issues these emission systems do work. 

It is not uncommon for diesels to have issues with their indirect injectors and/or their DOCs and allow excessive soot to build up in the DPF. I've seen upwards of 90-100g of soot accumulation, when that happens a code will set and the vehicle will need to be serviced.  Once we get the system repaired a very very long manual regen must take place, sometimes up to an hour. It does burn a lot of fuel to do this. 

Anyways I just wanted to share that,  there is a lot of misinformation that floats around the internet regarding what DEF is and what it does. There is really no reason to ever disable the emission systems on your pickup truck, the air that you are polluting is air that we all have to breath. Diesel emissions are very clean these days. I don't get peoples total disregard for the air we breath. 

FWIW, DEF usage is approx 1% of fuel usage on average. 

Party on Garth!

:clap:

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