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fullthrottleguy

School me on Fortin Transaxles please

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1 hour ago, DZRTRUN said:

This is a really good explanation of why the Albins is better. It’s really all of the parts around the R&P and gears that are much better quality. Its really the Lamborghini vs corvette z06 conversation  both get the job done but the lambo  is just built better and smoother. 

For me the difference in the Albins vs the S4D is the "operation"  shifting and driving both, IMO there is no comparison Albins for the win...

Both are too heavy and too big for me. I like the Fortin because it seems to the pound for pound inch for inch winner in a smaller car. with the Fortin being ~ the same size as the 2D and being what seems to be measurably stronger, It still seems like the way to go.   

I do wonder how the Fortin is holding up in BLACKZILLA with 2800HP in front of it?

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56 minutes ago, fullthrottleguy said:

For me the difference in the Albins vs the S4D is the "operation"  shifting and driving both, IMO there is no comparison Albins for the win...

Both are too heavy and too big for me. I like the Fortin because it seems to the pound for pound inch for inch winner in a smaller car. with the Fortin being ~ the same size as the 2D and being what seems to be measurably stronger, It still seems like the way to go.   

I do wonder how the Fortin is holding up in BLACKZILLA with 2800HP in front of it?

I myself am a big Fortin fan. One reason they can be smaller and lighter is they are straight cut gears eliminating axial loads on the shafts needing larger more robust case and bearings to contain. Also the 10" ring is much lighter. They get strength in the pinion by keeping the ratio higher making for a much bigger pinion. The depth and width of root on the R&P are huge. The FRS5 that's in Blackzilla is a beefy trans with huge gears. If it can handle the HP it will accelerate faster due to the lower rotating mass. 

My next car will more than likely have an S4D due to cost. If money wasnt a player it would definitely be an Albins or Fortin FRS5. My current car runs a Fortin wide 4 and I love it. It's loud but it runs cool and it shifts amazing. 

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22 hours ago, fullthrottleguy said:

For me the difference in the Albins vs the S4D is the "operation"  shifting and driving both, IMO there is no comparison Albins for the win...

Both are too heavy and too big for me. I like the Fortin because it seems to the pound for pound inch for inch winner in a smaller car. with the Fortin being ~ the same size as the 2D and being what seems to be measurably stronger, It still seems like the way to go.   

I do wonder how the Fortin is holding up in BLACKZILLA with 2800HP in front of it?

I have the new R spec  in my new two-seater hater maker 2.0 I have 2083 horsepower at the crank and  I've had it for five trips. The second trip out I had an issue the bearing welded itself and it wouldn't shift. Racer took it to Fortin and Doug made some special new bearing and told me before I go on romp on it that I need to warm the tranny more   since then no issues.. The thing shifts like butter. 

Edited by Supreme Air

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On 2/1/2019 at 7:10 AM, Hondo said:

The Albins weighs close to 100lbs more than a S4D. The gears may be @ the same size but the architecture of the case and design is much different.  The Albins is at least 20% stronger than the S4D but with 5 speeds. The S4D is definitely a lot of transmission for the money but it's not an Albins.  You definitely get what you pay for. 80% strength for 50% cost is a good deal for the S4D if 4 speed is good enough. 

I was trying to stay out of this conversation for the obvious conflict of interest reasons, but I would like to step in an clear up some of the misinformation that is being posted about our products. This does actually affect the conversations I have with people who do read these forums. Please understand that I am not trying to argue with anyone here, simply clearing up some mis-information that has been posted.

For the post above, 100 pounds heavier is simply not true. We have weighed all of these units without oil on our calibrated pallet jack, I would say it's accurate to about 5 pounds, so not the most accurate, but within reason. Actual weights posted below:

Albins AGB Sequential 5-speed: 215 lbs

Weddle S4D (now officially rebranded): 200 lbs

Weddle S5D: 210 lbs

Weddle S4: 180 lbs

Weddle S5: 190 lbs

Again, most larger scales are not going to be super accurate, so don't take these numbers as written law.

Putting percentage numbers to strength on these units is very difficult, if not impossible without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of detailed strength analysis that we are simply not going to pay for at this time. We have a good baseline on what these units can handle based in history and logic.

Every single conversation that I have with any customer asking what trans is best for them starts with 3 questions: What type of vehicle? What engine and how much power? And how do you intend to use/drive the vehicle? Answers to these give me the baseline of information that I need to know what trans is best for you and your application. The Weddle S5 trans that can handle upwards of 700 HP on average in a sand car will only handle a 200 HP 4 cylinder Ecotec in a Class 10 desert race buggy and needs to be serviced every 800-1000 miles.

We have made some pretty major improvements to the entire Weddle (formerly Mendeola) sequential transaxles that make them much stronger than when we acquired the program. There are many things about these that I would actually put up against an Albins in strength comparisons, but overall they lack some original design details that hold them back.

On 2/1/2019 at 7:24 AM, DZRTRUN said:

You completely made the weight thing up which is a little weird. I watched Mcdowell weigh my S4D and then weighed a brand new albins and the S4D was heavier. Both were just under 250.  I have a post on here somewhere with all the pictures. Also, I said have the the trans builder show you the same 3rd gear from both trans for a reason. I also have actual pictures in another thread. The S4D is 20% larger. The S5D is the exact same gear thickness as the albins. Also, albins/Weddle make all the gears for both. 

The S4D/S5D are pretty close to an Albins for external dimensions. Same size R&P and approximately the same length, they are both about 35" end to end depending on bell housings.

 

On 2/1/2019 at 7:41 AM, Hondo said:

 It isn't all about gear width that makes one trans stronger than the other. It has a lot to do with the structure and design of the case.  Like I said an S4D is great for the $$. It's not 5 speed and it's not as strong. So to compare the 2 is not relevant.  It is much heavier, maybe not 100lbs but it s much heavier and as a beefier case.  And yes all the gears are made by Albins. They are not the same gears. An LS7 and an Ecotech are made by GM 

True, the original design of the S4D/S5D case was a weak link, but our revised design and materials have proven to bring them much closer in strength to the Albins. There are other factors that go into why the S4D/S5D is not quite as good as the Albins on a direct comparison. 

Fact about Albins gears and Weddle gears is that they are actually the same. They use the same material, heat treat, and final finish on Weddle gears as they do their own gears.

On 2/1/2019 at 11:12 AM, J Alper said:

the gear are a little stronger in the S4D but that does not always play a big role,

for example you can change the dogs on a albins, but on the mendi it is part of the gear, so if you have some bad shifts and eat a dog you are out of a good gear, or 2 or 3,

The S4/S5 gears were originally made to accept the removable face plates that floated on the gears. These faceplates were the weak link and would break under heavy loads. We changed the design about 10 years ago that machined the dogs directly onto the gear (Or welded the faceplate to the gear for the taller ratio's that would not allow this) to remove that weak link. Albins also integrates their dogs onto the gear the same we do for the S4/S5 gears. None of the newest Weddle sequential trans gears nor Albins sequential gears have removable dogs on the gear itself. The slider is the selector piece that can be changed out when the dogs are worn.

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6 hours ago, SEAN@WEDDLE said:

I was trying to stay out of this conversation for the obvious conflict of interest reasons, but I would like to step in an clear up some of the misinformation that is being posted about our products. This does actually affect the conversations I have with people who do read these forums. Please understand that I am not trying to argue with anyone here, simply clearing up some mis-information that has been posted.

 

Sean

Always great to have you weigh in with facts, at least I appreciate it. Weddle has done a great job making the "Mendeola" designs far better, and I have experienced that first hand. 

Now if you could shorten the S4  by 4" or so.... that would be something great

 

Edited by fullthrottleguy
typo
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15 hours ago, fullthrottleguy said:

Sean

Always great to have you weigh in with facts, at least I appreciate it. Weddle has done a great job making the "Mendeola" designs far better, and I have experienced that first hand. 

Now if you could shorten the S4  by 4" or so.... that would be something great

 

We can make it a 2-1/2 speed.

 :lol:

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Sean,

I think a lot of people here agree with fullthrottleguy about your input here and your contribution to offroad transaxles.  Any projects, updates, etc. that you guys are working on that you can share here?  Also, how does the HV-24/HV-25 compare on weight?

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Just ordered a R&P for my tranny.

They are up to $3727.  Ouch!!!!!

But, I have had my current one in my car since 2007, so not bad.

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Wanted to post this pix up.  On the left is an older style Pinion that has been in my Fortin since 2007.  The new R&P that Fortin uses is from Hewland.  Much beefier.  Also why the cost went up.  I guess Hewland is pricey?? 

This is what went in my Fortin this week.

IMG_3295.jpg

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Got any other pics of the internals you can post up Lincster?

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IMG_3293.thumb.JPG.f78f3b23bc36d00aa5bf0b33ab443e78.JPG

Worn out 2nd gear.  2.20 ratio

IMG_3297.thumb.JPG.203d266bc146e17c5508a9519ac68615.JPG

New 2nd gear on the right.  1.93 ratio.  Much stronger.  McMullen says that people that have gone to this gear have had much better luck than the 2.2 ratio.

IMG_0389.thumb.JPG.2c81634e0a87ab982b1b8b0a799c6f14.JPG

Love Redline.  LOL

IMG_0394.thumb.JPG.2a6f4e7ca231a2b642fd7c94f6916c77.JPG

Ring gear with diff.

IMG_0387.thumb.JPG.7a4099e86af904fe64906fa9f0404a9c.JPG

Old style drive flange.

I went to the new style that have blind holes.

No more chance of dumping tranny fluid if a CV has to be replaced in the dunes.

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I can post more pix of my box o parts when I pick up my car next week.

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41 minutes ago, lincster said:

I can post more pix of my box o parts when I pick up my car next week.

Did you go lower on you R&P ratio now that you have the supercharger?  What ratio are you running?

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Interesting..I just scanned thru this entire thread and it's all intelligent conversation..Not a Troll in Sight..Good Job Guys..

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3 hours ago, evantwheeler said:

Did you go lower on you R&P ratio now that you have the supercharger?  What ratio are you running?

I have always had the 3.88 ratio, so no, I stayed the same.

I just have more fun now with the supercharger.  :)

The 3.88 is the strongest R&P Fortin offers.  I like that.

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Awesome! Please do post up. I'm running the Fortin and am curious as to what I have....

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Which is better for a duel sport twin turbo Ls based car

Fortin

s4s/s4d

pbs 

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4 hours ago, Mikeyfresh714 said:

Which is better for a duel sport twin turbo Ls based car

Fortin

s4s/s4d

pbs 

S4D or the Fortin.  Personally I wouldn't even consider the PBS or the S4S on any boosted LS.  For the cost to upgrade your miles ahead.

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Love this thread.  I still feel like the transmissions in these cars are like a mythical unicorn on the inside.  

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I have the Fortin sequential in my Funco, 630 HP to the tires. The car was a bit of a demo before I bought it and went through a R & P after the first season. Pricey to repair, $5,000 or so.

Found that the oil pump had been plumbed backwards, corrected that and now on fourth season and still working great. I always use the clutch and drive it hard, shifts better than any other transmission I have driven which is all of them. Would I put one in a new car, without question.

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On 2/20/2019 at 6:05 AM, r3meyer said:

S4D or the Fortin.  Personally I wouldn't even consider the PBS or the S4S on any boosted LS.  For the cost to upgrade your miles ahead.

How much hp can a Fortin handle ? 

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On 2/15/2019 at 8:06 AM, lincster said:

Wanted to post this pix up.  On the left is an older style Pinion that has been in my Fortin since 2007.  The new R&P that Fortin uses is from Hewland.  Much beefier.  Also why the cost went up.  I guess Hewland is pricey?? 

This is what went in my Fortin this week.

IMG_3295.jpg

if you don't mind me asking, who is rebuilding your transaxle.  I ask because mine has been at Fortin since the December 12 and still no word on when it will be done 

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On 2/22/2019 at 8:57 PM, t12l1break said:

if you don't mind me asking, who is rebuilding your transaxle.  I ask because mine has been at Fortin since the December 12 and still no word on when it will be done 

Kevin McMullen.

Yeah, your experience is the same as what others are seeing.

Not good customer service from Fortin as of late.

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On 2/24/2019 at 7:22 AM, lincster said:

Kevin McMullen.

Yeah, your experience is the same as what others are seeing.

Not good customer service from Fortin as of late.

I guess it is good to hear I'm not the only one a little frustrated that it is taking so long to complete a rebuild.  In all fairness we are waiting for gears from Hewland in the United Kingdom, and  Jerry at Fortin has been very helpful in setting my gears up to work for my car and type driving I do.  I think we all get a little antsy when your toy is broken in the middle of your desert season.  hopefully I will be able to get a few trips in March.  

thanks for the info!

 

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