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Jonesin'

Front tire size

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57 minutes ago, Jonesin' said:

Where can I look those up?

Orw, or Parkhouse maybe Fullerton sand tires also. my four year old like to look things up too.

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On 1/3/2019 at 9:54 AM, SANDPSYCHO said:

Other then a slight increase in leverage the tire size has little to do with spindle failure, or the material around it. The weight of the tire is on the ground. It's the cars weight that is on the spindle. Do people ever talk about how many years thier combo spindle went before it cracked? I went almost 10 years when jumping and pounding through witch eyes took mine out. 2" hollows are fairly new but eventually your going to hear about them breaking off. That's not to say it's not a worth while upgrade but anything can be broken. 

Not to sound like a public service announcement....but I Don't think the issue is the leverage of the bigger tire turning from a centrifugal force standpoints, however it is the "Lever effect of having that big tire "planting" that greatly increases the risk. Big tires have a bigger footprint on the surface - going from and 8.50 to a 10.50 is close to 50% more surface area if I did the math right based on height and width. A 35" Baja is far more. Hit a witches eye and its like having a pipe on your leverage bar when that tire catches. That combined with as you say years of fatigue on a small surface area where someone welded a 1 1/2" thick piece of steel to an 1/8" piece of steel, is not the ideal setup, and unless you crack check the spindles every year,  it's risky.  Remember the old threads on the Extreme cars breaking spindles?

The inconvenient truth (did I quote Al Gore - sorry)  is that with a relatively small population of aging sand cars, everyone that goes to the dunes often will see one to several spindle failures in a season.  That statistic alone is not heresay and points to real risk. Having seen a car "endo" from a broken spindle, it's not worth the risk IMO. If you don't swap them, at least Mag (crack check) them often if the car is older, You should be repacking the front wheel bearings yearly anyway, so a little more observation should not be an inconvenience. It's why I have  or fire out system and we carry fire extinguishers, How many cars actually burn up? not many, but if its yours its one too many.

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6 hours ago, fullthrottleguy said:

Not to sound like a public service announcement....but I Don't think the issue is the leverage of the bigger tire turning from a centrifugal force standpoints, however it is the "Lever effect of having that big tire "planting" that greatly increases the risk. Big tires have a bigger footprint on the surface - going from and 8.50 to a 10.50 is close to 50% more surface area if I did the math right based on height and width. A 35" Baja is far more. Hit a witches eye and its like having a pipe on your leverage bar when that tire catches. That combined with as you say years of fatigue on a small surface area where someone welded a 1 1/2" thick piece of steel to an 1/8" piece of steel, is not the ideal setup, and unless you crack check the spindles every year,  it's risky.  Remember the old threads on the Extreme cars breaking spindles?

The inconvenient truth (did I quote Al Gore - sorry)  is that with a relatively small population of aging sand cars, everyone that goes to the dunes often will see one to several spindle failures in a season.  That statistic alone is not heresay and points to real risk. Having seen a car "endo" from a broken spindle, it's not worth the risk IMO. If you don't swap them, at least Mag (crack check) them often if the car is older, You should be repacking the front wheel bearings yearly anyway, so a little more observation should not be an inconvenience. It's why I have  or fire out system and we carry fire extinguishers, How many cars actually burn up? not many, but if its yours its one too many.

Very good point. I've been talking with Jason and I'm going to be shipping him my spindles for the 2" hollow upgrade as soon as my car gets back from the the aluminum shop

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11 hours ago, fullthrottleguy said:

Not to sound like a public service announcement....but I Don't think the issue is the leverage of the bigger tire turning from a centrifugal force standpoints, however it is the "Lever effect of having that big tire "planting" that greatly increases the risk. Big tires have a bigger footprint on the surface - going from and 8.50 to a 10.50 is close to 50% more surface area if I did the math right based on height and width. A 35" Baja is far more. Hit a witches eye and its like having a pipe on your leverage bar when that tire catches. That combined with as you say years of fatigue on a small surface area where someone welded a 1 1/2" thick piece of steel to an 1/8" piece of steel, is not the ideal setup, and unless you crack check the spindles every year,  it's risky.  Remember the old threads on the Extreme cars breaking spindles?

The inconvenient truth (did I quote Al Gore - sorry)  is that with a relatively small population of aging sand cars, everyone that goes to the dunes often will see one to several spindle failures in a season.  That statistic alone is not heresay and points to real risk. Having seen a car "endo" from a broken spindle, it's not worth the risk IMO. If you don't swap them, at least Mag (crack check) them often if the car is older, You should be repacking the front wheel bearings yearly anyway, so a little more observation should not be an inconvenience. It's why I have  or fire out system and we carry fire extinguishers, How many cars actually burn up? not many, but if its yours its one too many.

If you're talking about contact patch, that's a function of inflation pressure vs. weight only (within reason, obviously).  Going to a 10.50 from an 8.50 should not change the contact patch much at all if the same inflation pressures are used.  Larger tires also run into shit less and roll over stuff more, which is why most notice an improvement in ride quality.  Running into things is obviously going to be harder on parts.

Buuuut....  You are correct that hitting shit, as well as cornering loads (not centrifugal force), puts more load on the spindle.  Especially since most people use 0 offset (or close to centerline) wheels.  

The larger tire's weight also comes into play since it's unsprung weight and must be moved before the suspension does anything.  The larger diameter makes that increased weight have even more leverage on the spindle.  

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12 hours ago, fullthrottleguy said:

Not to sound like a public service announcement....but I Don't think the issue is the leverage of the bigger tire turning from a centrifugal force standpoints, however it is the "Lever effect of having that big tire "planting" that greatly increases the risk. Big tires have a bigger footprint on the surface - going from and 8.50 to a 10.50 is close to 50% more surface area if I did the math right based on height and width. A 35" Baja is far more. Hit a witches eye and its like having a pipe on your leverage bar when that tire catches. That combined with as you say years of fatigue on a small surface area where someone welded a 1 1/2" thick piece of steel to an 1/8" piece of steel, is not the ideal setup, and unless you crack check the spindles every year,  it's risky.  Remember the old threads on the Extreme cars breaking spindles?

The inconvenient truth (did I quote Al Gore - sorry)  is that with a relatively small population of aging sand cars, everyone that goes to the dunes often will see one to several spindle failures in a season.  That statistic alone is not heresay and points to real risk. Having seen a car "endo" from a broken spindle, it's not worth the risk IMO. If you don't swap them, at least Mag (crack check) them often if the car is older, You should be repacking the front wheel bearings yearly anyway, so a little more observation should not be an inconvenience. It's why I have  or fire out system and we carry fire extinguishers, How many cars actually burn up? not many, but if its yours its one too many.

I can't argue with that and it does make perfect sense. What I have seen is combo spindles fail and everyone has been close to or older then 10 years. All of them running an 8.50 tire or smaller. All of them on a 2000 lbs car or heavier. I think there is a certain number of hits, suspension cycles, and hard turns built into every spindle. Bigger tire a few less. A bigger spindle a few more, but matter what, once that number is reached your driving a tricycle.

I would have to agree a larger tire will speed up the failure rate but I doubt the increase would be equal to the surface area of the tire or size of the tire. 

What should be taken away from this is tear them down and inspect them. Keep a note of the camber of your tires. If its leaning in more then you think it did it probably is. Like any part, in time it will need attention. There is nothing in an offroad car that is going to last forever. Most people don't see a spindle as a wear item but in fact the whole car is.

You could say every car should have 2" hollows but the same could be said for the trans or the axles etc. Its all a tradeoff and budget is a big factor for most. 

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2 hours ago, SANDPSYCHO said:

I can't argue with that and it does make perfect sense. What I have seen is combo spindles fail and everyone has been close to or older then 10 years. All of them running an 8.50 tire or smaller. All of them on a 2000 lbs car or heavier. I think there is a certain number of hits, suspension cycles, and hard turns built into every spindle. Bigger tire a few less. A bigger spindle a few more, but matter what, once that number is reached your driving a tricycle.

I would have to agree a larger tire will speed up the failure rate but I doubt the increase would be equal to the surface area of the tire or size of the tire. 

What should be taken away from this is tear them down and inspect them. Keep a note of the camber of your tires. If its leaning in more then you think it did it probably is. Like any part, in time it will need attention. There is nothing in an offroad car that is going to last forever. Most people don't see a spindle as a wear item but in fact the whole car is.

You could say every car should have 2" hollows but the same could be said for the trans or the axles etc. Its all a tradeoff and budget is a big factor for most. 

A couple of seconds with one of these in your garage after a trip would find that quickly:

image_17440.jpg

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All good points here. Holy crap, if you have camber change due to fatigued/cracked spindles you are a few seasons late getting the front suspension checked out. lol

Part of owning a high performance sand rail is knowing your machine inside and out. You should know what is normal and what has changed even from ride to ride. I give my car a once over every time we come back to camp. there are a few indicators that I look at that tell me immediately if something has moved. 

A really good option if you are not planning on a 2" hollow upgrade anytime soon would be to remove both spindles, have them magnafluxed and then have them normalized. Heat treating isn't expensive at all and will help eliminate weld fatigue. My spindles are 2 seasons old and I had planned on having them normalized but other things came up and I never did have them done, I can see the spud weld clearly on mine and I inspect them regularly, I am going to build a new set this summer with 2" hollows.

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FYI ... M/T Baja pro shaved on a 15x7 Method  50 lbs 

Tire alone is 28 ish lbs 

bathroom scale so not super accurate 

 

BF76FE9C-6AFE-489B-901D-7481DE8852CB.png

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1 hour ago, chopshop said:

FYI ... M/T Baja pro shaved on a 15x7 Method  50 lbs 

Tire alone is 28 ish lbs 

bathroom scale so not super accurate 

 

BF76FE9C-6AFE-489B-901D-7481DE8852CB.png

What the hell is that Thing? :bigrin 

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50 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

What the hell is that Thing? :bigrin 

Yes.

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5 hours ago, chopshop said:

FYI ... M/T Baja pro shaved on a 15x7 Method  50 lbs 

Tire alone is 28 ish lbs 

bathroom scale so not super accurate 

 

BF76FE9C-6AFE-489B-901D-7481DE8852CB.png

What do you mean "shaved?"

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5 hours ago, Jonesin' said:

What do you mean "shaved?"

They buff or shave off the outside treads to save weight and give it a pointy profile in the center to work in the sand. Speaking of weight....From what I’ve read here over and over Baja Pros are heavy. The Thing has 28 pound tires? Thats light as hell for a tire that size and beef.   I want to borrow a set now....The 8.50 STU tripple razor weighs 23 pounds used so call it 24pounds. A spun aluminum non beadlock rim is 8 pounds for 31 pounds total.  Post more tire weight please.

8.50 STU Razor is 24 pounds

 BAJA Pro  35” shaved is 28 pounds.       

Edited by stumpalump

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A new MT 33" Baja Pro on a Douglas 15" beadlock was 54.2 pounds when I weighed mine for spring calculations.  I wasn't able to weigh them separately as they were shipped mounted.

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47 minutes ago, stumpalump said:

They buff or shave off the outside treads to save weight and give it a pointy profile in the center to work in the sand. Speaking of weight....From what I’ve read here over and over Baja Pros are heavy. The Thing has 28 pound tires? Thats light as hell for a tire that size and beef.   I want to borrow a set now....The 8.50 STU tripple razor weighs 23 pounds used so call it 24pounds. A spun aluminum non beadlock rim is 8 pounds for 31 pounds total.  Post more tire weight please.

8.50 STU Razor is 24 pounds

 BAJA Pro  shaved is 28 pounds.       33” right?

My BAJA pros are 35 inch I bought  new from Grant at Funco   

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On 1/1/2019 at 5:51 PM, fullthrottleguy said:

Have to 100% agree with JAlper - 

Not bigger than an 8.50x15  with a Combo even on a light car for safety. If you drive it hard and hit a witches eye thew Spindle will be toast and probably take body work with it... They always seem to fail when under the hardest load, coming down off a wheelie, hard turn near a lip, turning in a witches eye... all really dangerous when they break....

I have to disagree with both of you.  I've been running 33"  Baja pros as my sand tire since I built my light car in 2011.  In 2015 I started running the hard pack and for a year I ran  a 35" Goodyear yellow labels before switching  to 33" BFG Baja T/As.  The car has seen time in glamis, arizona, and most of the popular hardpack riding spots in CA.  It's been used to pre run multiple US off road races and I even used it to pre run the 2017 B1K.  She's no garage queen.

Couple of seasons ago I hit a witches eye on the passenger side.  It was an ugly one,  coming down a dune and it was hiding at the crease at the bottom.   I had 3 adults in the car.   It was a nasty hit but the car drove through it and made it back to camp under it's own power.  The 33" baja pro actually rubbed the frame.  The hit twisted the upright up pretty bad.  The combo held up fine.  Once I got it torn down  you can see that the weld from the snout did crack, but so did the actual upright, in multiple places and the frame in three places.

Point is, a US made combo snout that is properly welded will hold up fine with 33".  It will be no more a weak point than any other fabricated part on the car.

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31 minutes ago, THROTTLEJUNKIE said:

I have to disagree with both of you.  I've been running 33"  Baja pros as my sand tire since I built my light car in 2011.  In 2015 I started running the hard pack and for a year I ran  a 35" Goodyear yellow labels before switching  to 33" BFG Baja T/As.  The car has seen time in glamis, arizona, and most of the popular hardpack riding spots in CA.  It's been used to pre run multiple US off road races and I even used it to pre run the 2017 B1K.  She's no garage queen.

Couple of seasons ago I hit a witches eye on the passenger side.  It was an ugly one,  coming down a dune and it was hiding at the crease at the bottom.   I had 3 adults in the car.   It was a nasty hit but the car drove through it and made it back to camp under it's own power.  The 33" baja pro actually rubbed the frame.  The hit twisted the upright up pretty bad.  The combo held up fine.  Once I got it torn down  you can see that the weld from the snout did crack, but so did the actual upright, in multiple places and the frame in three places.

Point is, a US made combo snout that is properly welded will hold up fine with 33".  It will be no more a weak point than any other fabricated part on the car.

IMG_2148.JPG

IMG_2966.JPG

IMG_2969.jpg

IMG_2973.jpg

IMG_2974.JPG

Jeezlus man.  Can't ask for more, that spindle is WRECKED but held together. 

I have a Can Am X-3 for the wife.  The Internet is full of horror stories about the rear suspension wallering holes out because the metal is "too thin".  Most of the problem is the same as here: people drive shit until it breaks instead of inspecting.  I nut and bolt both of our cars at the beginning of every season, and check critical ones like those rear suspension pivots after every trip, and have found that those rear bolts on the X-3 get a 1/4 turn loose every 2-3 trips.  

Point is: If you subjected your street vehicle to this, it would shake itself apart after 30 minutes.  We're asking a lot of these vehicles.  Inspect them often.

Edited by Rockwood

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