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travelah

2d leaking into bell housing

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Posted (edited)

About 4 years ago I bought a brand new 2d and ran it with a honda for 2 seasons, refreshed it (only needed bearings and seals), then mated it to a LS1. I ran it for a season with no issues. Before this season I noticed some oil on my rear skid plate, initially I thought rear main seal but after pulling trans I realized it was gear oil. Talked to Transworks (built it and refreshed it) and he said it could be a bent or gouged input shaft (but very unlikely as hes only seen 1 bent in all his years) or my adapter plate is not perfectly concentric, or the input shaft seal could have gone bad and to try and replace the outer one before throwing money at it, so I did. I thought it was all good because I never saw any more oil on the skid plate but I pulled it last night for my routine every 2 year refresh and gear oil poured out the bell housing again. I'm taking it in this or next week but it got me thinking... I replaced my clutch in the middle of that first season with the LS and it was dry, if it was the adapter plate not being concentric would I have seen it at that point or not necessarily? Anyone had this issue? What was your problem?

 

Edited by travelah

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@L.R.S. just went through this on a clients of his car. Turned out to be the wrong pilot bearing. Maybe he’ll chime in.

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X2 on the pilot bearing 

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Easy to get to seals. Just drain fluid and pull bellhousing. Reseal housing to trans.

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1 minute ago, Richard H said:

Easy to get to seals. Just drain fluid and pull bellhousing. Reseal housing to trans.

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They will get replaced anyway on the rebuild but that’s good to know! It’s as simple as just pulling bell housing, changing the seals, and resealing the case? I’m more concerned that something else is causing it.

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Could be a groove worn in the input shaft from the seal. (Believe it or not that the rubber from the seal can wear into hardened steel over time) That is what mine did over time and had to replace the input shaft during my last rebuild.

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16 minutes ago, cali kid said:

@L.R.S. just went through this on a clients of his car. Turned out to be the wrong pilot bearing. Maybe he’ll chime in.

I used the one off the kartek website... is this the wrong one???

028AC25F-51F7-47EB-AF3D-7604E81439F0.png

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5 minutes ago, travelah said:

I used the one off the kartek website... is this the wrong one???

028AC25F-51F7-47EB-AF3D-7604E81439F0.png

You could certainly pop it out and see if it has excessive play on your input shaft. Another easy and quick check on the list.

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Did you put 2 seals in input shaft ?  Trans guys have said double them up 

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35 minutes ago, chopshop said:

Did you put 2 seals in input shaft ?  Trans guys have said double them up 

Yea there was 2 in there but I only replaced the outer one and did it without removing the bell housing. Didn't know what replacing the inner one consisted of at that time. 

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14 minutes ago, travelah said:

Yea there was 2 in there but I only replaced the outer one and did it without removing the bell housing. Didn't know what replacing the inner one consisted of at that time. 

Yes it really is easy to remove the bell housing. Bill at Az Trans had some really neat sealer on it that I couldn't find at a reasonable price so I used a light  coat of rtv, seems to be fine.

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2 hours ago, travelah said:

Yea there was 2 in there but I only replaced the outer one and did it without removing the bell housing. Didn't know what replacing the inner one consisted of at that time. 

I didn’t remove bell housing . Just picked both out and 2 new ones in 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, cali kid said:

@L.R.S. just went through this on a clients of his car. Turned out to be the wrong pilot bearing. Maybe he’ll chime in.

Yeah, just did the exact job, but for the second time on the same transaxle.  About a year ago a client asked me to change his input shaft seal.  I picked the car up, got the engine out and it was ugly.

 

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All cleaned up.

 

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The Mendeola 2D has two input shaft seals, one on top of the other.  I always replace both.

 

 

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I used a piece of aluminum pipe to seat the seals.

 

Pretty straight forward job.  Then a year later the new owner brought the car is back to me for a rear main seal leak...

 

20180301_121529.jpg

Edited by L.R.S.

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Posted (edited)

The new owner called and said the car needed a rear main seal.  I picked one up from CBM and he dropped the car off the next day. 

 

As soon as I got the engine out I saw it wasn't the rear main seal, it was the input shaft seals, again. 

 

 

I called @SEAN@WEDDLE and asked his opinion about why this happened again.  I'll let him post his thoughts, but one thing he mentioned was possibly a bad pilot bearing.  I ordered two new seals, new throw out bearing and a new pilot bearing and the parts showed up the next day.

 

 

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The pilot bearing looked hammered.  That's when I recalled having issues installing this engine the last time I worked on it.  It just wouldn't go in.   I never really looked at the pilot bearing the last time I had the engine out but now that I was checking it out something wasn't right so I called @SEAN@WEDDLE again to discuss it.  Sean quickly realized this engine had the wrong pilot bearing and shipped me the correct one.  In the meantime, I had to get this one out.  I bought a pilot bearing puller from O'Rilieys but it was too big.  I modified it a little to fit but the pilot bearing wasn't coming out easily.  I put a torch on it and it finally broke loose but broke apart.

 

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The correct one on the right, similar to the one @travelah has.

 

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The clutch and pressure plate were wasted so I ordered up a new set from @CBM

 

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Lots of built up material from the leak.  Took a while to get it cleaned up.

 

 

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Correct pilot bearing installed.

 

 

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New seals and throw out bearing

 

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Engine is back in the car.  Fired it up, adjusted the clutch pedal free play and it was ready to go.  

 

I say it all the time in threads similar to this one- make a phone call.  What engine oil should I use- call the engine builder.  What differential fluid should I use- call the trans builder.  I've been doing this a long time and I still pick up the phone to ask what may be a stupid question, but I ask regardless.  I'm really flad I called @SEAN@WEDDLE when I couldn't figure out what was wrong.  Sean can attest that he and I have spent a lot of time on the phone and through email about not only about clients cars but my personal car as well.

20190418_122228.jpg

Edited by L.R.S.

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9 hours ago, richierichaz said:

Could be a groove worn in the input shaft from the seal. (Believe it or not that the rubber from the seal can wear into hardened steel over time) That is what mine did over time and had to replace the input shaft during my last rebuild.

When I had the 2D it was this and the grove was deep. I may have the shaft laying around some where if I do I'll take a pic

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On 4/26/2019 at 1:19 AM, J Alper said:

I wonder if this is my issue as well. I dont have a LS engine though. My input shaft seal is leaking again but it also leaked with the northstar engine.

 

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most if a 2D is leaking the pilot bearing is the issue,  on the Kennedy style some replace the VW flat roller bearing with a China latest rage bearing and they do not last use a good SKF bearing inside the aluminum adapter and you should be good,   

the 2D has a dual seal so unless you have some issue with a support bearing or material eating the seal they are hard to leak 

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We list the correct pilot bearing and throw out bearing including spacing in the description for all of our clutch kits on the website. I am going to see if we can get a better type of spreadsheet made that will be easier to figure out what is needed a bit faster with less searching.

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Thanks for the replies! Trans is in the shop now for a refresh and hes gonna check it out. Gonna replace the pilot bearing as well. Learned a cool trick on getting those out... Instead of using grease and getting it everywhere, use bread and a bolt. Shove a bunch of bread in the hole and use a bolt with some electric tape to get as close to the diameter of the hole and hit it a few times with the hammer. I think it was harder to get in than it was to get out with that trick!

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Just now, travelah said:

Thanks for the replies! Trans is in the shop now for a refresh and hes gonna check it out. Gonna replace the pilot bearing as well. Learned a cool trick on getting those out... Instead of using grease and getting it everywhere, use bread and a bolt. Shove a bunch of bread in the hole and use a bolt with some electric tape to get as close to the diameter of the hole and hit it a few times with the hammer. I think it was harder to get in than it was to get out with that trick!

 

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Stopped by transworks today. Looks like the input shaft had slight grooves where the seals sit. Eric said the input shaft can be salvaged but the ring and pinion, side gears, and synchros not so much... About a $2500 rebuild. 💸

E9C0F456-5EED-4506-B8CF-E7F8A7923BD1.jpeg

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Good info.  Hey LRS, how did you get the seals out of the tranny?  

 

thanks

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1 hour ago, budlight69 said:

Good info.  Hey LRS, how did you get the seals out of the tranny?  

 

thanks

Seal puller tool from Harbour Freight. Super easy and they popped right out.

download (2).jpeg

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On 4/25/2019 at 6:18 PM, L.R.S. said:

The new owner called and said the car needed a rear main seal.  I picked one up from CBM and he dropped the car off the next day. 

 

As soon as I got the engine out I saw it wasn't the rear main seal, it was the input shaft seals, again. 

 

 

I called @SEAN@WEDDLE and asked his opinion about why this happened again.  I'll let him post his thoughts, but one thing he mentioned was possibly a bad pilot bearing.  I ordered two new seals, new throw out bearing and a new pilot bearing and the parts showed up the next day.

 

 

20190411_113430.jpg

The pilot bearing looked hammered.  That's when I recalled having issues installing this engine the last time I worked on it.  It just wouldn't go in.   I never really looked at the pilot bearing the last time I had the engine out but now that I was checking it out something wasn't right so I called @SEAN@WEDDLE again to discuss it.  Sean quickly realized this engine had the wrong pilot bearing and shipped me the correct one.  In the meantime, I had to get this one out.  I bought a pilot bearing puller from O'Rilieys but it was too big.  I modified it a little to fit but the pilot bearing wasn't coming out easily.  I put a torch on it and it finally broke loose but broke apart.

 

 

LRS have you ever used Bread?? If you think I am joking google it. We pulled a buddies motor, 2 hours to get his Pilot out. When I did mine I had seen the bread trick, wad up bread behind the bearing, as much as possible to fit, 3 slices for me, then a punch that just fits inside the Pilot bushing hole, and POP, it was out in 5 minutes, used it again, with much similar success

 

 

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