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The debate over abortion

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2 minutes ago, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

Guys, Its been refreshing to see your views!

Im Pro life!  had a similar thing as a previous post.......Had our first boy, then a miscarriage. the next child had a test that showed possible signs of a Downs child.  They recommended an amniocentesis to confirm.  We asked what the purpose of confirming it does for us.  Then you could make a more sound decision on if you want to keep the baby. they forced us to watch a movie that explained how it would all go down.  we walked out of the movie and said to ourselves, "are you kidding me"  We will take what ever God has in store for us, BTW no thanks.  She was one of our most "normal" kids of 6!  could you imagine?  our 5th child was born with Downs and is a special gift in our family.  doctors didn't know when he came out as by this point in our marriage we didn't even do any of the tests (why? for what reason)

Its funny how they label their movement "right to choose"  sounds positive doesn't it?  why not just call it what it is..... Anti life!  Oh im sorry does that sound bad?

I do believe in Pro choice "in the bedroom"  after that........the choice has already been made now deal with the consequences as a human.

 

Like I said...there is no defined "Right" in any of this....only  a legal precedence.  And when you offer solutions and compromise...nope, they won't even entertain it.  For me, it comes down to control.  Plain and simple.  Pretty steep price to hold "control" over something.  I'd choose a more positive approach to control something.

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1 minute ago, Mac said:

Like I said...there is no defined "Right" in any of this....only  a legal precedence.  And when you offer solutions and compromise...nope, they won't even entertain it.  For me, it comes down to control.  Plain and simple.  Pretty steep price to hold "control" over something.  I'd choose a more positive approach to control something.

Your absolutely right. The whole goal of the democrats is to keep and make dependants. Monetary, drug, crime, everything. Its social engineering by feeding the squirrels

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Abortion and the death penalty aren't so far removed.  A neglected, unwanted child raised in poor conditions has a higher likelihood of becoming a bad person, hurting others, ending up in prison and being aborted later in life, after causing pain and loss for others.  

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18 minutes ago, Legit Duner said:

The heart is a muscle..

The brain is "us".

Muscle cannot function without neurological or electrical impulse

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6 minutes ago, azcg said:

Abortion and the death penalty aren't so far removed.  A neglected, unwanted child raised in poor conditions has a higher likelihood of becoming a bad person, hurting others, ending up in prison and being aborted later in life, after causing pain and loss for others.  

I didn't think we'd get here yet but....

I was adopted.  My biological mother was 15 when she had me.  I was born in 1969, Roe v. Wade was ruled on in '73.  Had it been sooner, I might not be here.  I don't think I turned out so "bad", but I do get what you're saying.  I'm not sure we can purely make the association as there are some born and raised under those circumstances that create a lot of good.  Plus...a lot of serial killers come from upstanding and well off families.  I do believe is really comes down to the person.

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1 minute ago, azcg said:

Abortion and the death penalty aren't so far removed.  A neglected, unwanted child raised in poor conditions has a higher likelihood of becoming a bad person, hurting others, ending up in prison and being aborted later in life, after causing pain and loss for others.  

No. I was birthed to a woman who had no desire to have children. Loved dogs way more than humans. After letting me run wild and free in a city that was at the time 81% Black she decided on my 12th birthday to drive me 300 miles away and drop me off in some foster care system that is more fugged up than I have time to explain. 11 families in 5 years ought to sum it up a little for you. My time from 0 to 17 was way more effed up than you could ever imagine but I tired of handouts and Govt assistance and decided only I could make a better life for me. Long story short, I turned out pretty damn well. Not any of the things you perceive.  I know you said likelihood, I'm just giving my experience.

Having said all of that: if you believe in a Creator then life begins a conception. I'm a man so it's not my decision to live with and I don't think abortion should be used as a means of birth control On the other hand I believe very strongly in sterilization. It should be mandatory for some segments of society and then the argument would kind of just sort itself out.

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Just now, Mac said:

I didn't think we'd get here yet but....

I was adopted.  My biological mother was 15 when she had me.  I was born in 1969, Roe v. Wade was ruled on in '73.  Had it been sooner, I might not be here.  I don't think I turned out so "bad", but I do get what you're saying.  I'm not sure we can purely make the association as there are some born and raised under those circumstances that create a lot of good.  Plus...a lot of serial killers come from upstanding and well off families.  I do believe is really comes down to the person.

The association can and has been made.   Basic facts support the Donohue-Levitt hypothesis that legalized abortion in the 1970s explains a substantial part of the crime decline in the 1990s.

 http://freakonomics.com/2005/05/15/abortion-and-crime-who-should-you-believe

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2 minutes ago, azcg said:

The association can and has been made.   Basic facts support the Donohue-Levitt hypothesis that legalized abortion in the 1970s explains a substantial part of the crime decline in the 1990s.

 http://freakonomics.com/2005/05/15/abortion-and-crime-who-should-you-believe

Interesting and kudos for having a decent reference.  I'll be reading this.  

I don't deny the connection to an extent, just not ready to fully support it.  Also, this could lead to some very interesting debates on color, religion, other factors that our society won't discuss or face these days.

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2 hours ago, Mac said:

"NO!  They have a responsibility to take care of it!"  But you can make the decision to terminate when he wants it, why can't he relieve himself of legal and financial obligation and have a "right to choose" as well?  I explain it this way and state that this issue isn't about women's health at all.  It's purely about women wanting control to make decisions.  Decision that men have no say yet can bare major consequences against their will and desires if the woman so desires.

Good point.  When the decision is between the conceiving couple, they are both making a choice.

When government gets involved in the woman's choice of birth, then the government should also be responsible for the long term care of the birth.

It seems most people that are anti-abortion, are the same people that decry government assistance. 

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Just now, azcg said:

Good point.  When the decision is between the conceiving couple, they are both making a choice.

When government gets involved in the woman's choice of birth, then the government should also be responsible for the long term care of the birth.

It seems most people that are anti-abortion, are the same people that decry government assistance. 

Agreed.

Maybe...we should focus more on the basics of sex ed instead of all the perversion they teach and focus on nowadays.  Get back to the basics kids need to know about their bodies.  Get back to teaching boys and girls how to get along and respect each other.  Discuss rape and victimization and breakdown the "taboo" stench of it so we can focus on helping people, not punishing them.

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49 minutes ago, Legit Duner said:

The heart is a muscle..

The brain is "us".

I like this. Reminds me of a medical class I took where the teacher hinted at "heartbreaks"... he said "it's funny when you hear a teenager going through a break-up holding their chest saying their heart hurts" but then he said "impossible" as he points to his head and says "it hurts here, not here" (at his chest). 

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32 minutes ago, azcg said:

The association can and has been made.   Basic facts support the Donohue-Levitt hypothesis that legalized abortion in the 1970s explains a substantial part of the crime decline in the 1990s.

 http://freakonomics.com/2005/05/15/abortion-and-crime-who-should-you-believe

I was going to post the same reference. Great book.

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3 hours ago, badgas said:

Let's make this easy 

 

Abortion kills a human !!

 

Ok on to the next topic. 

^^^^^  I have this question For those that are for it (abortion)... Ponder or answer me this.. Exactly much  would you be for it, had your "MOTHER" decided to have one on YOU????   End of discussion..  See what I did there? <<<<<  I also addressed another hotbed topic.. men by nature are not capable of childbirth ....  and  the 3rd topic:  by nature (2) men cannot procreate,    nor can (2) women..  Some thing are set and designed that way by God.. Seems fairly straight forward, but this hotbed discussion has been raging since Bible times, so as Solomon stated, there is nothing new under the sun. 

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What blows my mind about this issue and most issues debated in politics is the complete lack of discussion on how to fix the root of the problem. We instead seem to line up on one side or the other. There is always a handful of us that are in between seeing both side but unfortunately the ones is charge have a winner takes all attitude.  

I'd say its a pretty safe assumption that no women plans on getting an abortion. Due to many factors but mostly a lack of responsibility 500,000 + people a year are having to make this choice and I'm sure a lot more are having children they never wanted. Seems we should be talking about how we reduce unwanted pregnancies more than talking about how we end them. When you look at the demographics there is a clear distinction that young poor women make up the majority. https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2017/abortion-common-experience-us-women-despite-dramatic-declines-rates

Seems that if we could address the "why we do it" more than the "right to do it" we might be able to make a real difference.  

I'm Pro good decisions and if not bringing a child into this world is ultimately the best decision then so be it. If you can't be responsible enough not to get pregnant and then not take care of your responsibilities when you do get pregnant then you sure as hell shouldn't be given the responsibility to raise a human. 

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2 minutes ago, pennywise said:

What blows my mind about this issue and most issues debated in politics is the complete lack of discussion on how to fix the root of the problem. We instead seem to line up on one side or the other. There is always a handful of us that are in between seeing both side but unfortunately the ones is charge have a winner takes all attitude.  

I'd say its a pretty safe assumption that no women plans on getting an abortion. Due to many factors but mostly a lack of responsibility 500,000 + people a year are having to make this choice and I'm sure a lot more are having children they never wanted. Seems we should be talking about how we reduce unwanted pregnancies more than talking about how we end them. When you look at the demographics there is a clear distinction that young poor women make up the majority. https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2017/abortion-common-experience-us-women-despite-dramatic-declines-rates

Seems that if we could address the "why we do it" more than the "right to do it" we might be able to make a real difference.  

I'm Pro good decisions and if not bringing a child into this world is ultimately the best decision then so be it. If you can't be responsible enough not to get pregnant and then not take care of your responsibilities when you do get pregnant then you sure as hell shouldn't be given the responsibility to raise a human. 

Politics has lost all sense of debate, compromise and creating a great good for the largest amount.  it's all about win or lose now and in most cases, 100% of Americans lose out or suffer somehow.

The pure lack of debate and intelligible effort to solve this kills me.  Also, this is a 50 year old debate.  It serves really as nothing more than a distraction from what our elected officials and citizenry effort could be spent on, creating a greater good.

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7 minutes ago, pennywise said:

What blows my mind about this issue and most issues debated in politics is the complete lack of discussion on how to fix the root of the problem. We instead seem to line up on one side or the other. There is always a handful of us that are in between seeing both side but unfortunately the ones is charge have a winner takes all attitude.  

I'd say its a pretty safe assumption that no women plans on getting an abortion. Due to many factors but mostly a lack of responsibility 500,000 + people a year are having to make this choice and I'm sure a lot more are having children they never wanted. Seems we should be talking about how we reduce unwanted pregnancies more than talking about how we end them. When you look at the demographics there is a clear distinction that young poor women make up the majority. https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2017/abortion-common-experience-us-women-despite-dramatic-declines-rates

Seems that if we could address the "why we do it" more than the "right to do it" we might be able to make a real difference.  

I'm Pro good decisions and if not bringing a child into this world is ultimately the best decision then so be it. If you can't be responsible enough not to get pregnant and then not take care of your responsibilities when you do get pregnant then you sure as hell shouldn't be given the responsibility to raise a human. 

There is a good book written by a guy who grew up poor in ohio; his mother was a drug addict and so on and so forth, but he makes so many great points from his observations as a youth and extrapolates how he was able to get beyond it and get his law degree from harvard. Great insight into the social/racial/economic picture in the US

Hillbilly Elegy by JD Vance

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Watch this.. if you can still argue it..

 

 

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9 minutes ago, CaptNkllm said:

Watch this.. if you can still argue it..

 

 

 

 

makes me cry and then makes me nauseous

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2 hours ago, SCHMIDTY said:

^^^^^  I have this question For those that are for it (abortion)... Ponder or answer me this.. Exactly much  would you be for it, had your "MOTHER" decided to have one on YOU????   End of discussion..  See what I did there? <<<<<  I also addressed another hotbed topic.. men by nature are not capable of childbirth ....  and  the 3rd topic:  by nature (2) men cannot procreate,    nor can (2) women..  Some thing are set and designed that way by God.. Seems fairly straight forward, but this hotbed discussion has been raging since Bible times, so as Solomon stated, there is nothing new under the sun. 

I'd be so mad at her! I probably wouldn't even talk to her!

:bag:

:lmao:

 

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1 hour ago, dbart said:

I'd be so mad at her! I probably wouldn't even talk to her!

:bag:

:lmao:

 

correction, you wouldn't have even had the idea to be mad at her, something I read on a website somewhere talking about brain activity ;)

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The sad thing is that in New York City, there were years where more African American babies were aborted than born......think about that for a while....Planned parenthood was started by a straight racist that wanted to wipe the African American race out of America......but that just gets swept aside....besides the moral aspect...there is the Money aspect....Planned Parenthood is a money making gig for a LOT of people....Just really sad when you think about it....we can put a man on the moon, but we cant teach kids how to not get knocked up.........

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7 hours ago, sausage450r said:

Muscle cannot function without neurological or electrical impulse

It's all about energy. I may believe life starts before conception. I will not go into details. lol..

Bottom line. A woman's right in my eyes. Sucks for the father, life isn't always fair.

 

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Lots of things legal today that we have the rights for...I support those rights to be exercised. 

I do not think there is a justified reason for abortion however,  even in Medical necessity or rape it should be a last resort and avoided at all costs.

I am against abortion. Child has a right to live despite whatever circumstances brought their life into existence. 

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9 hours ago, sausage450r said:

What needs to happen is; a general consensus of when life begins needs to be decided. To me its at heartbeat. Which is generally 6 weeks. What i hear most from pro abortion people is; its when a child can survive outside the womb, and if you ask me, in todays america thats right around 25 years old

The problem with the 6 week heartbeat argument is most women don't find out they're pregnant until they miss a period, which in a lot of cases is 4 weeks after conception, possibly a lot later. Some women's periods are very irregular. I had a GF who figured out she was pregnant at about the 7 week point, then she had a miscarriage about a week or two after that. She really didn't pay attention to her periods much because she was on the pill. Come to find out, she forgot to take it a lot and wasn't really well protected, like she thought she was.

I also knew a girl who had been raped by her uncle when she was 12, almost 13. She told her parents right away, but they called her a liar. She was too young to think she could get medical care by herself, so by the time she was showing, she was already 5 or 6 months pregnant. She ended up giving birth to it and putting it up for adoption. At the time, the only testing they could do was blood type and the baby matched her uncle. Rather than prosecute him, thy shipped her off to San Diego to finish school.

Medical technology and capabilities have changed vastly over the last 20 yrs, there are a lot of options now that weren't available in the 60s and 70s. As far as women's rights to control their bodies, I suppose being a male kind of makes my opinion meaningless, which is fine by me. This is one of those topic that goes to the very core of a person's beliefs and while I generally believe there is a right and wrong answer to many topics and opinions based on facts and logic, this is one of the few where I can see both sides and can't honestly say either one is right or wrong. 

 

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9 hours ago, John@Outfront Mtrsprts said:

Guys, Its been refreshing to see your views!

Im Pro life!  had a similar thing as a previous post.......Had our first boy, then a miscarriage. the next child had a test that showed possible signs of a Downs child.  They recommended an amniocentesis to confirm.  We asked what the purpose of confirming it does for us.  Then you could make a more sound decision on if you want to keep the baby. they forced us to watch a movie that explained how it would all go down.  we walked out of the movie and said to ourselves, "are you kidding me"  We will take what ever God has in store for us, BTW no thanks.  She was one of our most "normal" kids of 6!  could you imagine?  our 5th child was born with Downs and is a special gift in our family.  doctors didn't know when he came out as by this point in our marriage we didn't even do any of the tests (why? for what reason)

Its funny how they label their movement "right to choose"  sounds positive doesn't it?  why not just call it what it is..... Anti life!  Oh im sorry does that sound bad?

I do believe in Pro choice "in the bedroom"  after that........the choice has already been made now deal with the consequences as a human.

 

Do you see any circumstance where a woman should be allowed to terminate the pregnancy?

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