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cwarkenton

Single Turbo LS1

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Posted (edited)

The plan is to put in an S4 to reduce long term maintenence costs on the buggy and not touch ANYTHING else. I have a mild built LS1. Mild cam, head work, forged internals, ported polished. Weeellllll it is an S4 and next season I will see more drive train loss so the buggy will actually feel less fast (that's me talking to the wife).

I should go with a built LS3. Tossed that around and decided against it. Costly and I would probably have some bugs to work through next season. I should stroke my motor. Decided against that. Costly for the HP gain and I just spent a bunch of money on forged parts last season when I melted a piston. 

I think I have settled on a low boost (6-8 lbs) single turbo. Can still run 91. Motor will handle the extra 100ish HP. Dollar for dollar the cheapest per HP option I found. I know there's a waste gate, and bearings and stuff to maintain, but I had a SCU vw turbo on 12 lbs and it was fast as eff* and pretty low maintenance. Blew up the turbo once and it was like 400 bucks to rebuild. 

I don't want twins but other than the bling factor why does literally every car run twins? Less lag? I don't want a supercharger cause it's expensive as shit and seems less reliable with the belt and pulleys etc than a turbo (mostly the cost) 

Will have it installed professionally and get a mellow Redline tune. Anybody wanna talk me out of it?

*edit - based on feedback below, I'll be adding an intercooler. 

 

Edited by cwarkenton
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That’s the exact route I’d go. Go to performance techniques if you are in the IE area and have him size you a turbo. Usually builds me something nice for 500$. You made need injectors. I’d also intercool it too. The guy here on the boards could build you a nice set of headers. A tial wastegate and bov and some aluminum.  Then a tune from somewhere you trust. Those options kinda depend on your ecm. 

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What about a 100 hp shot of nitrous?  

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3 minutes ago, jtmoney714 said:

That’s the exact route I’d go. Go to performance techniques if you are in the IE area and have him size you a turbo. Usually builds me something nice for 500$. You made need injectors. I’d also intercool it too. The guy here on the boards could build you a nice set of headers. A tial wastegate and bov and some aluminum.  Then a tune from somewhere you trust. Those options kinda depend on your ecm. 

Thanks! I'm going to have Buck at Goodrich Fab do everything except the tune. I trust him and his work and the car is already there getting the S4 put in so it's easy. 

I definitely need injectors. We think I only have 38lb now. 

I am pretty dull when it comes to a lot of things. Motor and forced induction would definitely be one of the things. Buck did mention the intercooler but I really was trying to stay away one. The idea of more plumbing and one other thing hanging on the car bums me out. I know it would cool down the air going back into to the motor. Would that do anything for reliability or is it a more HP thing? 

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You should also buy a tow strap with the money you saved "going cheap".   You're buying an S4 trans but then you say a supercharger is expensive as shit? 

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8 minutes ago, Flip-Flop said:

What about a 100 hp shot of nitrous?  

I want a do it and forget it deal. I actually have a bad ass spray setup for an LS in my shop I took off an old car I had. It's the computer controlled one where you set auto parameters for a spray. You can tell it to spray at 3000 - 6000 rpm. I'm actually going to put it up for sale. Plus I don't know if it's the bad rap nos gets but I feel like it's hard on the motor. 

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3 minutes ago, fortyfour said:

You should also buy a tow strap with the money you saved "going cheap".   You're buying an S4 trans but then you say a supercharger is expensive as shit? 

Huh? It's an LS1 motor. The charger is 6 grand plus pulleys, fab work, that reservoir thing. I don't need a 3500 Ls1 with a 10000 hat. It's not a matter of spending but spending smart. At least in my opinion. Not to mention (which I didn't) I don't want to exceed recommended HP for my trans anymore. But thanks so much for the awesome feedback bro. 

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8 minutes ago, cwarkenton said:

I want a do it and forget it deal. I actually have a bad ass spray setup for an LS in my shop I took off an old car I had. It's the computer controlled one where you set auto parameters for a spray. You can tell it to spray at 3000 - 6000 rpm. I'm actually going to put it up for sale. Plus I don't know if it's the bad rap nos gets but I feel like it's hard on the motor. 

PM me about your NOS setup.  I may be interested.

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4 minutes ago, Flip-Flop said:

PM me about your NOS setup.  I may be interested.

PM sent 💰 if you buy it maybe I'll use the cash towards a supercharger just to show @fortyfour I'm not cheap. 😥

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22 minutes ago, cwarkenton said:

Thanks! I'm going to have Buck at Goodrich Fab do everything except the tune. I trust him and his work and the car is already there getting the S4 put in so it's easy. 

I definitely need injectors. We think I only have 38lb now. 

I am pretty dull when it comes to a lot of things. Motor and forced induction would definitely be one of the things. Buck did mention the intercooler but I really was trying to stay away one. The idea of more plumbing and one other thing hanging on the car bums me out. I know it would cool down the air going back into to the motor. Would that do anything for reliability or is it a more HP thing? 

Cooler air less detonation. Especially with 91.  Intercoolers aren’t that expensive and can be put anywhere. Unless you want to go with e85. If you already have it at a fab shop just go the extra bit. And you’re right. Turbos are cheaper and easier on motors than a blower is. 

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Well installing a non intercooled turbo on an engine that probably has 10:1 or better compression already is not smart spending. Would you rather I had said F**k Yeah just do it it'll be awesome?

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2 minutes ago, jtmoney714 said:

Cooler air less detonation. Especially with 91.  Intercoolers aren’t that expensive and can be put anywhere. Unless you want to go with e85. If you already have it at a fab shop just go the extra bit. And you’re right. Turbos are cheaper and easier on motors than a blower is. 

Thanks! I'll look more into the intercooler. That sounds worth it for sure. I had E85 in another car and it was a bitch to keep from gumming up and clogging injectors. 

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4 minutes ago, fortyfour said:

Well installing a non intercooled turbo on an engine that probably has 10:1 or better compression already is not smart spending. Would you rather I had said F**k Yeah just do it it'll be awesome?

It's all good but you gotta admit, the comment was worthless and jabby. I'm not trying to take the cheap way out or ever half ass things. I'm looking for the cheapest or most cost effective horsepower gain for my setup with reliability in mind. I was thinking people would tell me to run the twin setup for this reason or that. But it looks like I'm on the right track. Just need to run an intercooler as well 👍

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, cwarkenton said:

PM sent 💰 if you buy it maybe I'll use the cash towards a supercharger just to show @fortyfour I'm not cheap. 😥

I never suggested you buy a supercharger, or that you were cheap. Fwiw your entire post was about making 100 more hp as cheaply as possible, you had settled on a single non intercooled turbo to do the job. This combination would yield intake air temps in the 150f+ range and detonate on pump gas which would be detrimental to long term reliablity so I suggested you also buy a tow strap. 

If you had asked for opinions I would have suggested a better set of heads and bigger cam.

 

Edited by fortyfour

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2 minutes ago, fortyfour said:

I never suggested you buy a supercharger, or that you were cheap. Fwiw your entire post was about making 100 more hp as cheaply as possible, you had settled on a single non intercooled turbo to do the job. This combination would yield intake air temps in the 150f+ range and detonate on pump gas which would be detrimental to long term reliablity so I suggested you also buy a tow strap. 

If you had asked for opinions I would have suggested a better set of heads and bigger cam.

Opinions was why I'm asking the board. That up there 👆 is helpful information for dummies like me. I appreciate it and now the tow strap part makes sense. 

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A single turbo non intercooled LS1 will work just fine as long as you run e85. As for gumming up, I've heard people say that but everyone I know that ran it never had a problem. The set up your talking about was what my buddy did in his Tatum Black Widow. My buddy Dune Hoon built everything and tuned the car. That bitch was super fast and ran with some big hp cars but it also ate S4's for breakfast!

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E85 Don't gum stuff the iff up.  Myself and close friends have run ethanol in our buggy's  for close to 7 years now and have never had a injector plug or gum up from it.  I have run some that set in the drum for the entire summer at my Yuma winter place and it checked and run as good as the fresh stuff I buy in Elcentro when I run out of the left over from the season before.  I run the 30% ethanol in my 2011 Charger with the 5.7 Hemi, and in the wife's 2014 6.2 Hennessy jeep at home here in Kansas.  Have run it summer and winter with on problems.   I don't know for the life of me why e85 gets bashed so  much.   Rant over.  

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A turbo is a great way to add power, but you'll definitely want an intercooler.  You might also rethink the transmission upgrade.  I bet a LS1 with a turbo on low boost will make more than an S4 is rated for.

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If you want the benefits of E-85  but not the hassle of sourcing it...

https://www.amazon.com/AEM-30-3300-1-Gallon-Methanol-Injection/dp/B00GSBKNF2

I've used this kit on multiple pump gas turbo engines, it flat works. Grab a gallon of denatured alcohol (any hardware store), mix 50/50 distilled water in a jug and your good.

Just don't spray too much or its gonna blow the spark out lol. With the AEM control you can tune the amount some with the start/full boost knobs. Skip the intercooler, skip sourcing e-85, etc.

A 1 gallon tank lasts a while even more so at low boost.

Single turbos to feed an LS plus the plumbing are usually more than cheaper small turbos. Dodge/Cummins turbos work really well as twins (HX35, HE351,etc.), the big surge covers scream lots of cool turbo noises.

The best cheap setup usually starts with a quality OEM turbo (junkyard) that you have rebuilt. Jaime at Performance Techniques would be my first call.

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5 hours ago, big_daddy_jp said:

A single turbo non intercooled LS1 will work just fine as long as you run e85. As for gumming up, I've heard people say that but everyone I know that ran it never had a problem. The set up your talking about was what my buddy did in his Tatum Black Widow. My buddy Dune Hoon built everything and tuned the car. That bitch was super fast and ran with some big hp cars but it also ate S4's for breakfast!

Based on feedback I'm going to run the intercooler. Ive had an e85 car. My current motor was only at 368whp at redline when they did the tune. That puts me somewhere at 450ish at the crank so with another 100 hp I am hoping I'll be good 🤞

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3 hours ago, fastcorvairs said:

E85 Don't gum stuff the iff up.  Myself and close friends have run ethanol in our buggy's  for close to 7 years now and have never had a injector plug or gum up from it.  I have run some that set in the drum for the entire summer at my Yuma winter place and it checked and run as good as the fresh stuff I buy in Elcentro when I run out of the left over from the season before.  I run the 30% ethanol in my 2011 Charger with the 5.7 Hemi, and in the wife's 2014 6.2 Hennessy jeep at home here in Kansas.  Have run it summer and winter with on problems.   I don't know for the life of me why e85 gets bashed so  much.   Rant over.  

I had an e85 car for a season and it did run cool and fast. My left over e85 after a summer was sludge at the bottom though. There's other factors though too for me; availability, I believe I would need different compression, so that's a rebuild and it was REAL hard to start in the cold mornings. My brother still runs an e85 SU 3.2 V6 turbo and loves it though! That ultra lite gets it! 

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1 hour ago, Kansas T said:

A turbo is a great way to add power, but you'll definitely want an intercooler.  You might also rethink the transmission upgrade.  I bet a LS1 with a turbo on low boost will make more than an S4 is rated for.

It's already happening hahah we are guesstimating somewhere between 550 and 600 at the crank at 6 lbs of boost. I am hoping I'm  good. I'm going to ask redline to keep me on the rich side also when they tune. 

My thinking also about turbo is it comes on later in the rpms and comes on smoothish. It is my understanding that those gears get eaten from the sudden torque when hitting whoops and stabbing the throttle etc.  If I end up breaking the S4 it's onto a sxs for me hahahah

 

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Posted (edited)

I think twin turbo is just easier for some (it is great for performance obviously), getting all your exhaust into one flange can be an undertaking. A water/meth injection system could be useful for air temps, but at 6-7lbs boost I don't think you're going to see a horrible heat problem. After all, everything is in the wide open , not stuffed under a hood.

Edited by Legit Duner

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With a starting compression ratio of 10 to 1 at 7 lb of boost your final compression ratio is probably 15 or 16 to 1. No way I would try to run pump gas in a boosted motor like that. Depending where you are flex fuel or E85 is magic stuff. The ethanol has a cooling effect on the motor. At 7 PSI boost with no intercooler you could have intake temps over 200 degrees. For me I drain and add fresh flex-fuel every couple months during the summer. A little bit of Marvel oil helps also to keep the injectors lubed up. You just have to maintain it. I'm sure Sean could chime in but you should be more than fine with your S4 and that horse power level. To me a meth injection system is just something to fail.

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