Jump to content
cwarkenton

Single Turbo LS1

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, onanysunday said:

With a starting compression ratio of 10 to 1 at 7 lb of boost your final compression ratio is probably 15 or 16 to 1. No way I would try to run pump gas in a boosted motor like that. Depending where you are flex fuel or E85 is magic stuff. The ethanol has a cooling effect on the motor. At 7 PSI boost with no intercooler you could have intake temps over 200 degrees. For me I drain and add fresh flex-fuel every couple months during the summer. A little bit of Marvel oil helps also to keep the injectors lubed up. You just have to maintain it. I'm sure Sean could chime in but you should be more than fine with your S4 and that horse power level. To me a meth injection system is just something to fail.

I ran 8lbs boost on a 10.5-1 honda, no intercooler but I did use race gas. Never popped the motor. My meth injection was setup so it only sprayed when intake temps hit 180* (maybe it was 160* I don't recall) and I never topped the reservoir off in a season. 

Edited by Legit Duner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Legit Duner said:

I ran 8lbs boost on a 10.5-1 honda, no intercooler but I did use race gas. Never popped the motor. My meth injection was setup so it only sprayed when intake temps hit 180* (maybe it was 160* I don't recall) and I never topped the reservoir off in a season. 

Yep similar for me in the early days I ran 7 PSI on my Nissan V6 no intercooler with 110 purple. Iat's over 200 on the dyno. My motor was also right at 10 to 1 starting compression ratio without boost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what connecting rods are you using

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, J Alper said:

what connecting rods are you using

They're forged but forget brand. I believe Cali or something like that if I remember correctly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 10:43 PM, cwarkenton said:

The plan is to put in an S4 to reduce long term maintenence costs on the buggy and not touch ANYTHING else. I have a mild built LS1. Mild cam, head work, forged internals, ported polished. Weeellllll it is an S4 and next season I will see more drive train loss so the buggy will actually feel less fast (that's me talking to the wife).

I should go with a built LS3. Tossed that around and decided against it. Costly and I would probably have some bugs to work through next season. I should stroke my motor. Decided against that. Costly for the HP gain and I just spent a bunch of money of forged parts last season when I melted a piston. 

I think I have settled on a low boost (6-7 lbs) single turbo. Can still run 91. Motor will handle the extra 100 HP. Dollar for dollar the cheapest per HP option I found. I know there's a waste gate, and bearings and stuff to maintain, but I had a SCU vw turbo on 12 lbs and it was fast as eff* and pretty low maintenance. Blew up the turbo once and it was like 400 bucks to rebuild. 

I don't want twins but other than the bling factor why does literally every car run twins? Less lag? I don't want a supercharger cause it's expensive as shit and seems less reliable with the belt and pulleys etc than a turbo (mostly the cost) 

Will have it installed professionally and get a mellow Redline tune. Anybody wanna talk me out of it?

*edit - based on feedback below, I'll be adding an intercooler. 

 

There is your first mistake.  You are fooling yourself.

2nd mistake, not understanding what you are saying. 

I bought a used supercharger, had it professionally rebuilt and did the install of the heat exchanger, pump and lines myself.  Blower was designed to use factory pulleys, so no cost there.  Not expensive at all.

If you go a brand new 4.0 whipple then yes, expensive as shit, as you say. 

But there are other options.

Edited by lincster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has been posted lots and lots of times on this site, HP and Torque is not the only trans killer.

How you drive, CV size, tire size, air pressure, suspension set up etc etc.

Punisher550 is on his original set of gears in his S4.  Has had them for years.

He runs hard, has done NOS and currently has a blower.

His car is set up right and he knows how to drive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you will be totally fine with low boost even at 5 or 6 lbs you will be very happy.  put a intercooler on there and pump gas.  I have a turbo and blowoff valve sitting around if you want them. $500 shipped for them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Squatcher said:

I think you will be totally fine with low boost even at 5 or 6 lbs you will be very happy.  put a intercooler on there and pump gas.  I have a turbo and blowoff valve sitting around if you want them. $500 shipped for them

PM sent 🤘

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Turbo install progress. 🤘

Shooting for 8 lbs of boost. Intercooler is getting mounted above motor with plans to add a mid wing next summer (piggy buggy bank is empty this year). Went with a cxracing T4 turbo. 

Thanks again for all the help guys! And thanks @Squatcher for the injectors! Will post more as they come. 

imagejpeg_2(2).jpg

Edited by cwarkenton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The borg warner s400 and the s475 have been very big hits in the single turbo applications for Ls Motors.  The china cx racing turbo might not last long in an offroad application.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, DezertRatRail said:

The borg warner s400 and the s475 have been very big hits in the single turbo applications for Ls Motors.  The china cx racing turbo might not last long in an offroad application.

I was anti China crap but a guy in our camp runs the smaller one and swears by it. Fingers crossed hahah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, cwarkenton said:

I was anti China crap but a guy in our camp runs the smaller one and swears by it. Fingers crossed hahah

Your motor, but I would seriously reconsider. That’s a, what, $6-7k motor you’re trusting a $400 turbo to not eat itself and FOD your motor...? Compressor wheel spins over 100,000rpm, something goes wrong, your motor is eating metal. Spend $12-1600 and do it right man. 

BFBB0426-4FCF-4DE5-BE98-869B7B6C98C1.jpeg.f03be6d270a45f55cb908e85595f5b38.jpeg

I’d also make sure to support that turbo really well and put fittings on it/clock it right before going too far.

Edited by Rockwood

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

Your motor, but I would seriously reconsider. That’s a, what, $6-7k motor you’re trusting a $400 turbo to not eat itself and FOD your motor...? Compressor wheel spins over 100,000rpm, something goes wrong, your motor is eating metal. Spend $12-1600 and do it right man. 

BFBB0426-4FCF-4DE5-BE98-869B7B6C98C1.jpeg.f03be6d270a45f55cb908e85595f5b38.jpeg

I’d also make sure to support that turbo really well and put fittings on it/clock it right before going too far.

Solid advice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rockwood said:

Your motor, but I would seriously reconsider. That’s a, what, $6-7k motor you’re trusting a $400 turbo to not eat itself and FOD your motor...? Compressor wheel spins over 100,000rpm, something goes wrong, your motor is eating metal. Spend $12-1600 and do it right man. 

BFBB0426-4FCF-4DE5-BE98-869B7B6C98C1.jpeg.f03be6d270a45f55cb908e85595f5b38.jpeg

I’d also make sure to support that turbo really well and put fittings on it/clock it right before going too far.

Hey I get my turbos for 500$ from a turbo shop. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jtmoney714 said:

Hey I get my turbos for 500$ from a turbo shop. 

Lol. Garret T series journal bearing T4 runs in the $800-ish range. Cheap turbos can be had, just make sure they’re not slapped together by our adolescent cousins with questionable attention paid to important things like balance or wheel to  seal plate clearance in a factory somewhere. :bigrin 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rockwood said:

Lol. Garret T series journal bearing T4 runs in the $800-ish range. Cheap turbos can be had, just make sure they’re not slapped together by our adolescent cousins with questionable attention paid to important things like balance or wheel to  seal plate clearance in a factory somewhere. :bigrin 

Lol mine aren’t assembled by a 7 year old child of communism. But from what I’m told it’s all Garrett parts. Guy has a nice shop and great yelp reviews. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very hard to tell how close the hot side of that system is to the water lines and pump looks super close I would put one of those thermal covers like DEI turbo shield you are going to produce a bunch of residual heat in one area that doesn't see as much air movement at the end of the buggy...... I have personally used both high end and low end turbos most important is were you source them who put there paws on them as they went together even junk by a skilled craftsman will work very well....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/28/2019 at 8:39 AM, onanysunday said:

With a starting compression ratio of 10 to 1 at 7 lb of boost your final compression ratio is probably 15 or 16 to 1. 

thats-not-how-this-works-thats-not-how-a

Seriously though, boost doesn't change compression ratio, it just changes the charge volume before it's compressed.  Dynamic compression is way more complicated than static, and is what we all really "should" be considering along with actual peak cylinder pressures.  There are a ton of LS/LT type stuff running around with static compression in the neighborhood of 10:1 and boost well past 6.  For example, the "new" LT4 (C7 Z06, Gen 3 CTS-V and Gen 6 Camaro ZL1 motor) runs 10:1 static and  about 9.5 psi of boost bone-stock on crap CA 91 octane with a warranty.   Of course, the LT4 is running an intercooler and the late-model GM computers are a lot more sophisticated than the typical MEFIs in our cars.  

Anyway, I think a single turbo and low-boost in this application is an awesome idea, and I'm surprised we don't see it done more.  With 91 I'd like to see an IC on it, and I see from the OP's last post that's the plan.  Just keep things conservative and I think it'll make great power (a lot more than a stroker LS3 for a lot less cash, as the OP said) and *could* be reliable.  Will it be reliable?  Well, that's another story.  As has already been pointed out I think the China turbo is going to be the let-down of this system.  Beyond that, the quality of the tune and the consistency of the fuel system are key factors.  

Cool project, it'll be nice to see it come together! 

 

-TJ
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, tjZ06 said:

thats-not-how-this-works-thats-not-how-a

Seriously though, boost doesn't change compression ratio, it just changes the charge volume before it's compressed.  Dynamic compression is way more complicated than static, and is what we all really "should" be considering along with actual peak cylinder pressures.  There are a ton of LS/LT type stuff running around with static compression in the neighborhood of 10:1 and boost well past 6.  For example, the "new" LT4 (C7 Z06, Gen 3 CTS-V and Gen 6 Camaro ZL1 motor) runs 10:1 static and  about 9.5 psi of boost bone-stock on crap CA 91 octane with a warranty.   Of course, the LT4 is running an intercooler and the late-model GM computers are a lot more sophisticated than the typical MEFIs in our cars.  

Anyway, I think a single turbo and low-boost in this application is an awesome idea, and I'm surprised we don't see it done more.  With 91 I'd like to see an IC on it, and I see from the OP's last post that's the plan.  Just keep things conservative and I think it'll make great power (a lot more than a stroker LS3 for a lot less cash, as the OP said) and *could* be reliable.  Will it be reliable?  Well, that's another story.  As has already been pointed out I think the China turbo is going to be the let-down of this system.  Beyond that, the quality of the tune and the consistency of the fuel system are key factors.  

Cool project, it'll be nice to see it come together! 

 

-TJ
 

 

I just called it the wrong thing. Should be boosted or effective CR after boost.  Certainly the actual CR does not change.  My C5Z06 runs 9 psi boost on a stock motor and I beat on it. Pump 91. But you are not in the throttle as long in a street car. Not as much load either compared to climbing steep dunes and building heat. Comes down to the computer and pulling timing back when needed I guess. Personally for a dune car I would run an ethanol based fuel and be much safer. Either way...……… Boost is fun!!

Edited by onanysunday

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here would be a good question for a dyno guy. Do a setup at 6-7 psi boost and run one setup on pump 91 and another on AZ flex 50-54% or Cali E85. (Depending where you are) How much more power do you make? Of course intercooled with a good quality intercooler.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 8:03 AM, cwarkenton said:

I had an e85 car for a season and it did run cool and fast. My left over e85 after a summer was sludge at the bottom though. There's other factors though too for me; availability, I believe I would need different compression, so that's a rebuild and it was REAL hard to start in the cold mornings. My brother still runs an e85 SU 3.2 V6 turbo and loves it though! That ultra lite gets it! 

 I have a guy that works for my dad and has a flex vehicle.  At the end of the season I don't let any fuel sit around and give it to him.  I hear you on the hard starting on a cold Glamis morning. I ran on E85 before AZ took it away from us. Now our flex fuel has more gas and starts much easier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, onanysunday said:

I just called it the wrong thing. Should be boosted or effective CR after boost.  Certainly the actual CR does not change.  My C5Z06 runs 9 psi boost on a stock motor and I beat on it. Pump 91. But you are not in the throttle as long in a street car. Not as much load either compared to climbing steep dunes and building heat. Comes down to the computer and pulling timing back when needed I guess. Personally for a dune car I would run an ethanol based fuel and be much safer. Either way...……… Boost is fun!!

Fair 'nough.  And I agree a streetcar really doesn't get subjected to nearly as much WOT, nor as much on/off/on/off/on/off throttle as a rail.  Rails are def way harder on everything, and I learned my lesson for example with a fuel system that was plenty to support X HP on a street/track build but couldn't support X in a sand rail because of the more constant demand and heat.  Def agree, the modern computers are a big part of making the factory boosted stuff live, but the 0411 in your C5Z isn't nearly as complex as the late-model stuff. 

8 minutes ago, onanysunday said:

Here would be a good question for a dyno guy. Do a setup at 6-7 psi boost and run one setup on pump 91 and another on AZ flex 50-54% or Cali E85. (Depending where you are) How much more power do you make? Of course intercooled with a good quality intercooler.

The E build is going to make more power.  I'm not sure that's even a "question" anymore.  But in the OP's case he's not going for ultimate HP out of his combo.  He wanted to pick up some, but not exceed what his S4S can handle. 

-TJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, onanysunday said:

 I have a guy that works for my dad and has a flex vehicle.  At the end of the season I don't let any fuel sit around and give it to him.  I hear you on the hard starting on a cold Glamis morning. I ran on E85 before AZ took it away from us. Now our flex fuel has more gas and starts much easier.

I ran E85 in the built LS7 I had in my C5Z, which later made its way into my SCU then my Potter in various forms after various rebuilds.  The Z06 sat around 3-4 months when I was overseas one time and the ship was supposed to drain the fuel, put a few gallons of race fuel in, and let it idle a bit.  Well, they didn't.  I got home from where I was and had a track-day scheduled and went to get the car from the shop.  It wouldn't fire, it would barely cough and fart a bit.  We tried fresh plugs, checked for fuel an spark, checked the tune etc. and everything was "normal."  Finally we started draining the fuel, which was a PITA.  As you know, the C5 since it has 2 tanks, they equalize via the fuel return, so we had to run a line off the fuel-rail to a jug, jump the fuel pump relay 'til it ran out, then reconnect the fuel system to even out, then repeat, only getting about 1/2 of whatever was left each time.  Anyway, the the stuff coming out didn't even smell like E85 anymore, it was almost odorless.  We put about 10 fresh gallons in with whatever was left that we couldn't get out (or didn't have the patience to) and bam it fired right up perfectly.  Alcohol-based fuels like E85 are hygroscopic and will pickup all the water-content in the air if they're left exposed to the atmosphere (like in a vented fuel system).  E is awesome stuff, but it has to be taken care of properly.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, tjZ06 said:

I ran E85 in the built LS7 I had in my C5Z, which later made its way into my SCU then my Potter in various forms after various rebuilds.  The Z06 sat around 3-4 months when I was overseas one time and the ship was supposed to drain the fuel, put a few gallons of race fuel in, and let it idle a bit.  Well, they didn't.  I got home from where I was and had a track-day scheduled and went to get the car from the shop.  It wouldn't fire, it would barely cough and fart a bit.  We tried fresh plugs, checked for fuel an spark, checked the tune etc. and everything was "normal."  Finally we started draining the fuel, which was a PITA.  As you know, the C5 since it has 2 tanks, they equalize via the fuel return, so we had to run a line off the fuel-rail to a jug, jump the fuel pump relay 'til it ran out, then reconnect the fuel system to even out, then repeat, only getting about 1/2 of whatever was left each time.  Anyway, the the stuff coming out didn't even smell like E85 anymore, it was almost odorless.  We put about 10 fresh gallons in with whatever was left that we couldn't get out (or didn't have the patience to) and bam it fired right up perfectly.  Alcohol-based fuels like E85 are hygroscopic and will pickup all the water-content in the air if they're left exposed to the atmosphere (like in a vented fuel system).  E is awesome stuff, but it has to be taken care of properly.  

Yup, I normally keep 2-3 gallons in the buggy during the summer and add some Lucas ethanol stabilizer. I like to drain and refill every couple of months. Does not take long at all.  Also add a little bit of marvel oil to keep the injectors lubed. Was lazy this summer and parked the car in April.  Just drained it out last week and just like you said, did not even smell like fuel. Drained it out and added another couple gallons and the car idles perfect. A drain in the fuel tank is a must. When I am on a normal drain and fill I just add a gallon of the old fuel to a full tank in my Honda Ridgeline. Doesn't even know the difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all for the replies! Here's some progress pics. Coming along then off to redline for a tune. 

IMG_0947.jpg

imagejpeg_0(6).jpg

imagejpeg_1(3).jpg

imagejpeg_0(5).jpg

imagejpeg_2(3).jpg

imagejpeg_0(7).jpg

imagejpeg_0(4).jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Preview Post

More Links

©2001 GlamisDunes.com.
All rights reserved.

×
×
  • Create New...