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Thoughts on new Polaris RZR Pro XP?

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I was hoping for a different direction, a different engine and perhaps a move away from the CVT. I can't count the number of surveys I filled out for various survey companies (who never ID the mfg. seeking info) the past couple of years and always asked for more legroom, more power, a non cvt gearbox, and a quantum leap in quality control.

Polaris new machine is loaded with electronic stuff that is nice to have and appeals to a lot of buyers. Being an old school guy, and old in general, I wish they had put the effort into the powertrain first, then added the goodies. This machine is approaching 1800 lbs. dry weight, and that is a lotta machine. It will be well over a ton when wet and loaded with two people, and ice chests, tools, spares, light bars, etc.

I want a 72wide machine to replace my `14 XP1K2 seater. I suspect this car will get the Turbo S treatment in 2021. I also think the list price for that will be in in the 32k range.  Count me out at that number. Not that I can't afford it...I just don't see the juice being worth the squeeze.

I am right now deciding between a 19 Turbo S and a 19 X3 XRS Turbo R. I posted in that other thread soliciting thoughts. I am 6-4 and about 275, and have am disabled with major back issues. I need a machine that rides as best as possible. I know a visit to Ed Niemela with be required with either machine. He worked wonders on my current car. I hem and haw and need to step up and choose. Soon.

Anyway...that is where I see this new ride. Cool, lotsa tech built in. I think they have pushed the twin a long way...I don't know how much more they can squeeze outta it.

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FBT, if your disabled and have major back issues, I would highly suggest you find a new hobby. It’s not worth the rest of your life in pain for a few hours or days of fun. 

Ive watched my step father go from running two miles a day,  riding his dirt bikes & Indian motorcycles, working on his Vetts & T-birds to having a harder time walking and struggle with standing still & balancing without holding on to something. 

He still rides the Indians once a week, and plays more music now. So he has his hobby’s, just some others had to be retired. 

Good luck on your decision and take care of the only body you have! 

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FBT kinda echoed my thoughts exactly. The few more things we really want would not be hard to build into a sxs.  All the electronics are sorta cool but, not as cool as a full size cockpit and power. . and a tuned chassis. Real cage, etc...

 

 If 1000cc is the limit that's  fine just give me a triple and a turbo every time. Rotax does a good job, but other mfg's can do it too. There is enough tech out there to have 300hp reliably with a complete powerband, low mid and top. (See AC thundercat/Yamaha sidewinder). A DCT, or a torque converter auto? whatever. it's time for these things to get a little more serious since they are the life's blood of the off road industry at this point.

I'll wait till they get a little closer.  Hopefully in a year or two they (the MFG's) will deliver with something really interesting. A 200hp 72" talon would be enough to make me jump (dreaming out loud). 

 

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12 hours ago, FBT said:

I was hoping for a different direction, a different engine and perhaps a move away from the CVT. I can't count the number of surveys I filled out for various survey companies (who never ID the mfg. seeking info) the past couple of years and always asked for more legroom, more power, a non cvt gearbox, and a quantum leap in quality control.

Polaris new machine is loaded with electronic stuff that is nice to have and appeals to a lot of buyers. Being an old school guy, and old in general, I wish they had put the effort into the powertrain first, then added the goodies. This machine is approaching 1800 lbs. dry weight, and that is a lotta machine. It will be well over a ton when wet and loaded with two people, and ice chests, tools, spares, light bars, etc.

I want a 72wide machine to replace my `14 XP1K2 seater. I suspect this car will get the Turbo S treatment in 2021. I also think the list price for that will be in in the 32k range.  Count me out at that number. Not that I can't afford it...I just don't see the juice being worth the squeeze.

I am right now deciding between a 19 Turbo S and a 19 X3 XRS Turbo R. I posted in that other thread soliciting thoughts. I am 6-4 and about 275, and have am disabled with major back issues. I need a machine that rides as best as possible. I know a visit to Ed Niemela with be required with either machine. He worked wonders on my current car. I hem and haw and need to step up and choose. Soon.

Anyway...that is where I see this new ride. Cool, lotsa tech built in. I think they have pushed the twin a long way...I don't know how much more they can squeeze outta it.

It I were you I would be looking at a 4 seat Turbo S.   I do not think you will find a more comfortable ride straight off the showroom floor.   That fancy live valve suspension works and works really well.  I have 2 friends with the 4 seat Turbo S and when I drive them I am blown away how well the stock suspension works.  That extra wheelbase makes a big difference.    

The X3 RS is a great SXS, but you will need Ed to do his magic to make it ride comfortably for you bad back.   I own one and have Ed's suspension work.  He does some serious magic to the shocks.    I love the Rotax motor and my X3.   I have just over 4000 miles on it in less than 2 years. 

By the way the drive train has been improved even more with the new XP Pro, the cab has been widened and there is more leg room as the car has a bigger wheelbase.   Everything about the XP Pro is an improvement over past Polaris XP models.  

For those wanting more hp -  a large majority of people that own the current turbo models can barely handle the hp.  Some can not even handle  a 100hp SXS.  With that said I can see  250+hp models in the next 5 years. 

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9 hours ago, kennerz said:

FBT kinda echoed my thoughts exactly. The few more things we really want would not be hard to build into a sxs.  All the electronics are sorta cool but, not as cool as a full size cockpit and power. . and a tuned chassis. Real cage, etc...

 

 If 1000cc is the limit that's  fine just give me a triple and a turbo every time. Rotax does a good job, but other mfg's can do it too. There is enough tech out there to have 300hp reliably with a complete powerband, low mid and top. (See AC thundercat/Yamaha sidewinder). A DCT, or a torque converter auto? whatever. it's time for these things to get a little more serious since they are the life's blood of the off road industry at this point.

I'll wait till they get a little closer.  Hopefully in a year or two they (the MFG's) will deliver with something really interesting. A 200hp 72" talon would be enough to make me jump (dreaming out loud). 

 

You are asking them to build you a sandcar with a DCT style transmission and keep the price at a reasonable cost.  Find me a new sandcar that has all your wants for under $35,000.00.     

From talking to some others that are in know - the Honda Talon set up is nice, but the transmission like to get hot.  Start adding bigger tires or throw in sand and that transmission might not be a happy camper.  Time will tell how well the Honda set up works as more and more of the public get a hold of them.   I want to see one with the Jackson Motorsports turbo set up.  

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12 hours ago, Sand Shark said:

You are asking them to build you a sandcar with a DCT style transmission and keep the price at a reasonable cost.  Find me a new sandcar that has all your wants for under $35,000.00.     

From talking to some others that are in know - the Honda Talon set up is nice, but the transmission like to get hot.  Start adding bigger tires or throw in sand and that transmission might not be a happy camper.  Time will tell how well the Honda set up works as more and more of the public get a hold of them.   I want to see one with the Jackson Motorsports turbo set up.  

You are right I'm asking for something to be built that currently does not exist. Call it a 4wd mini buggy, with a cockpit like a streetcar, good hp, to weight ratio, race ATV handling. Dreaming but this could easily exist, The parts exist, we are getting close. Similar to a formula cross kart, but with real suspension. The ultimate hual a** do it all off road machine.. It can cost more, but get it right.

 

That Robby Gordon XX(speedcat) on a race chassis with a Yamaha sidewinder engine is awesome , but at $95k is a little steep for the average off road consumer.  More we discuss it a X3 or turbo S seems more and more  realistic and good enough to work well.  Just don't want to get on the two year cycle of a Sxs being totally obsolete, want something I could keep for a couple of years and not feel like it's a technological dinosaur.

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13 hours ago, Sand Shark said:

the Honda Talon set up is nice, but the transmission like to get hot.  Start adding bigger tires or throw in sand and that transmission might not be a happy camper.  

Hmmmmmm....

I wonder who predicted this? I also wonder who said that it wasn't really an automatic, so it wasn't going to overheat...

:lmao:

 

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8 minutes ago, socaldmax said:

Hmmmmmm....

I wonder who predicted this? I also wonder who said that it wasn't really an automatic, so it wasn't going to overheat...

:lmao:

 

It has a sensor that will put the Honda in a limp mode it the transmission gets hot.  It will be interesting to see how they do when they make their way to Glamis.  

I have not seen any post on the Honda forum about it yet.  Once sand season gets into full swing we shall see.

still as nice set up.  

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31 minutes ago, kennerz said:

You are right I'm asking for something to be built that currently does not exist. Call it a 4wd mini buggy, with a cockpit like a streetcar, good hp, to weight ratio, race ATV handling. Dreaming but this could easily exist, The parts exist, we are getting close. Similar to a formula cross kart, but with real suspension. The ultimate hual a** do it all off road machine.. It can cost more, but get it right.

 

That Robby Gordon XX(speedcat) on a race chassis with a Yamaha sidewinder engine is awesome , but at $95k is a little steep for the average off road consumer.  More we discuss it a X3 or turbo S seems more and more  realistic and good enough to work well.  Just don't want to get on the two year cycle of a Sxs being totally obsolete, want something I could keep for a couple of years and not feel like it's a technological dinosaur.

The beauty of having a turbo car Is more power can easily be had with a tune.  You can get a good amount of hp out of them on pump gas..

Polaris is charging the way with technology, not sure how much more they can push it other than new versions of what they have.

With the X3 and XPT you will never be outdated in 3-4 years.  The platforms seem to have  at least a 5 year run before a complete redesign.  

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On 8/3/2019 at 11:49 AM, kennerz said:

Maybe I've been mislead to believe that they are that unreliable. Just some of the complaints like: Loose steering boxes, bolt holes rounded, crumpled cages on easy roll overs, let alone huge bump steer. Not even saying I don't like them. Just seems like a lot of potential stuff to fix that seem to be quality/design related.

 

Your post outlines exactly what I mean you can have a wildcatxx built for the price of a really good sand car with no real reliability.  Not saying a dct is the end all either, just there in the entire automotive engineering universe has to be other alternatives than a 2000lb machine with 170hp and a belt.  The X3 two seat is the closest to the mark IMHO, just had dealers tell me of bullet proof drivelines coupled with poor chassis quality/strength. See so many the are essentially re-engineered to stay together. Not complaining, just an observation. Also heard of 4" of bump steer from the factory. Design wise there isn't a lot of excuse for that at this point in time.  

I'm not a Honda swinger, just their engineering is strong. But the culture is super conservative. A X3 with Honda build quality would have me sold, or a Honda with X3 performance. They are getting real close. just my opinion for the $0.000001 it's worth.

I will spend $25~30k, but not to have to spend another $20k to make it right, or keep it together, that doesn't make sense to me. Makes a V8 rock/dune jeep make seem more viable, just don't want to build a car from scratch. Tis what it tis.

This dude's still alive, stock cage isn't bad.  Room for improvement if you're in the habit of rolling it in the rocks, but it'll keep you alive... :bigrin 

 

 

On 8/5/2019 at 8:44 AM, Sand Shark said:

The point of my post is you don't have to spend a ton of money to make them right.  For under $200.00 the Can Am is good to go.   The Polaris XP Turbo, XP1000, Turbo S and the new Pro XP you can jump in and go have fun.    There are a lot of snake oil salesman and you have to be able to figure out what works and what is a bunch of BS.     

Jeeps are great if you want to go 30mph or under everywhere.   We had a Jeep come with us on a Barstow to Stateline ride.  The jeep had some nice suspension and they got absolutely hammered trying to keep up with the SXSs.  They took the highway back. Jeeps are for rocks and slow trail riding. 

By the way if you think a SXS is going to cost a lot to make it right, you will be wishing you had a SXS after spending money on a  Jeep.  

If you are sand only then get a sandrail.  If you want to do a lot of different things it is hard to beat the versatility of a SXS.  

I hear this all the time.  Yes, SxS is going to go faster than a Jeep through open desert, but if the Jeep is set up with some thought, it does fine.  Nothing really special about Wilkey's XJ other than the King bypasses and air stops (most Jeepspeed guys run progressive poly stops instead):

Jeepspeed (single 2.5 bypass, no more than 10" of travel):

Most of the guys I know that can't hack any speed in the desert have JKs with the wrong shock size on them...  At least half the lifted JKs I see out there have Fox shocks with 2-3" of uptravel...  Next time you're behind one, check out the rear shocks.  You'll probably see a nice shiny set of Fox or King shocks under there with 2" of shaft showing.  Great droop travel, but no speed.

Edited by Rockwood

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2 hours ago, Rockwood said:

This dude's still alive, stock cage isn't bad.  Room for improvement if you're in the habit of rolling it in the rocks, but it'll keep you alive... :bigrin 

 

 

I hear this all the time.  Yes, SxS is going to go faster than a Jeep through open desert, but if the Jeep is set up with some thought, it does fine.  Nothing really special about Wilkey's XJ other than the King bypasses and air stops (most Jeepspeed guys run progressive poly stops instead):

Jeepspeed (single 2.5 bypass, no more than 10" of travel):

Most of the guys I know that can't hack any speed in the desert have JKs with the wrong shock size on them...  At least half the lifted JKs I see out there have Fox shocks with 2-3" of uptravel...  Next time you're behind one, check out the rear shocks.  You'll probably see a nice shiny set of Fox or King shocks under there with 2" of shaft showing.  Great droop travel, but no speed.

Those are Jeepspeed  desert racec cars.  I believe the  UTVs eat them up at BITD and  SCORE races.    Most Jeep owners want to be able to drive them on the street, not dedicated off-road rig.  In general the jeeps I run into on the trails are moving slow and quite frankly become trail plugs.  When you get to the nasty rocks they kick ass.

The jeep that was on the Stateline ride had Fox shocks I believe, nothing too fancy.  They did enjoy their A/C though.  LOL!

 

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26 minutes ago, Sand Shark said:

Those are Jeepspeed  desert racec cars.  I believe the  UTVs eat them up at BITD and  SCORE races.    Most Jeep owners want to be able to drive them on the street, not dedicated off-road rig.  In general the jeeps I run into on the trails are moving slow and quite frankly become trail plugs.  When you get to the nasty rocks they kick ass.

The jeep that was on the Stateline ride had Fox shocks I believe, nothing too fancy.  They did enjoy their A/C though.  LOL!

 

My point was the Jeepspeed cars and the Wilkey-mobile are easily repeated.  10" of travel and good shocks sized correctly is all they really have going for them.  Most of the trail plugs you've seen are either old dudes who won't drive fast to save their own life, guys who don't want to scratch their $50k MSRP "investment", or as stated above with 2-3" of up travel before hitting the tiny rubber stops on the shock (NOT the factory bumpstop) making for a kidney-pulverizing ride.  

And never said the Jeeps were going to beat a UTV, just that they can easily be set up to maintain 40-50mph through the desert so long as you're not asking them to pound through 3' whoops for long.  

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5 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

My point was the Jeepspeed cars and the Wilkey-mobile are easily repeated.  10" of travel and good shocks sized correctly is all they really have going for them.  Most of the trail plugs you've seen are either old dudes who won't drive fast to save their own life, guys who don't want to scratch their $50k MSRP "investment", or as stated above with 2-3" of up travel before hitting the tiny rubber stops on the shock (NOT the factory bumpstop) making for a kidney-pulverizing ride.  

And never said the Jeeps were going to beat a UTV, just that they can easily be set up to maintain 40-50mph through the desert so long as you're not asking them to pound through 3' whoops for long.  

I understand what you were pointing out.     Those Jeepspeed set ups would be fun to bash around the desert. 

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Fun thread.  My $0.02 on a few things:

  • CVTs are still the right transmission for SxSs.  These are relatively heavy vehicles with small, peaky motors (yes, the turbo models are less-peaky... but all of the non-CVT models are NA) that get asked to do "everything."  While the CVT isn't as entertaining as shifting your own gears, it's the right tool for the job
  • I like a lot of the substantive changes of the Pro (complete 1-piece frame, water-cooled turbo and steam-vent for the head, etc.) and even some of the "little stuff" like the captured clutch-cover bolts
  • I really don't dig the look, but who knows maybe it'll grow on me (especially with the full aftermarket treatment) 
  • I think it's interesting they did it on a 64" model.  I think a lot of people are obsessed with the 72" width number "just because".  There are upsides and downsides to 64" or 72", but even duning I like the overall package of our '18 XPT Fox 64" (granted, on the sand wheels/tires it's probably closer to 70") 
  • I've done the rock-crawling thing and am even thinking about buying/building another Jeep.   Yes, you can turn a Jeep into a full race type thing like a Jeepspeed build and maybe bomb the desert as fast as you can in a RZR, but unless you're actually racing it in a series, why would you?  You end up with a Jeep that you spent a lot of $ on to make it about as good at going fast offroad as a SxS, but lost all the Jeep advantages over a SxS (street legal, enclosed cab w/ AC, etc.).  There's no beating SxSs for their jack-of-all-trades nature and how fast they can take on rough terrain.  If I were to get into another Jeep I know it'd be for takin' it slow and relaxing (I really am getting old, aren't I?) 
  • SxSs in general have gotten really, really good.  The new RR X3 or this RZR Pro are pretty crazy machines when you compare them to where they were just 10 years ago.  Sand rails will still dominate at pure duning, but if you want to do everything with one machine it's damn hard to beat a SxS 

-TJ

 

PS- what "geometry problem" are we talking about exactly on the RZRs? 

Edited by tjZ06

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19 hours ago, tjZ06 said:

Fun thread.  My $0.02 on a few things:

  • CVTs are still the right transmission for SxSs.  These are relatively heavy vehicles with small, peaky motors (yes, the turbo models are less-peaky... but all of the non-CVT models are NA) that get asked to do "everything."  While the CVT isn't as entertaining as shifting your own gears, it's the right tool for the job
  • I like a lot of the substantive changes of the Pro (complete 1-piece frame, water-cooled turbo and steam-vent for the head, etc.) and even some of the "little stuff" like the captured clutch-cover bolts
  • I really don't dig the look, but who knows maybe it'll grow on me (especially with the full aftermarket treatment) 
  • I think it's interesting they did it on a 64" model.  I think a lot of people are obsessed with the 72" width number "just because".  There are upsides and downsides to 64" or 72", but even duning I like the overall package of our '18 XPT Fox 64" (granted, on the sand wheels/tires it's probably closer to 70") 
  • I've done the rock-crawling thing and am even thinking about buying/building another Jeep.   Yes, you can turn a Jeep into a full race type thing like a Jeepspeed build and maybe bomb the desert as fast as you can in a RZR, but unless you're actually racing it in a series, why would you?  You end up with a Jeep that you spent a lot of $ on to make it about as good at going fast offroad as a SxS, but lost all the Jeep advantages over a SxS (street legal, enclosed cab w/ AC, etc.).  There's no beating SxSs for their jack-of-all-trades nature and how fast they can take on rough terrain.  If I were to get into another Jeep I know it'd be for takin' it slow and relaxing (I really am getting old, aren't I?) 
  • SxSs in general have gotten really, really good.  The new RR X3 or this RZR Pro are pretty crazy machines when you compare them to where they were just 10 years ago.  Sand rails will still dominate at pure duning, but if you want to do everything with one machine it's damn hard to beat a SxS 

-TJ

 

PS- what "geometry problem" are we talking about exactly on the RZRs? 

Geometry problems that nobody but offroad racers notice when they cycle the suspension.

 

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31 minutes ago, Sand Shark said:

Geometry problems that nobody but offroad racers notice when they cycle the suspension.

 

Care to elaborate?  I'm genuinely interested. This is only on the S's? 

 

-TJ
 

Edited by tjZ06

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1 hour ago, tjZ06 said:

Care to elaborate?  I'm genuinely interested. This is only on the S's? 

 

-TJ
 

That is what I have read and then they get into all the technical mumbo jumbo that is above my pay grade.   These are people that likely find fault in everything. 

Me personally I like the way it drives and see no issues.  

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2 hours ago, Sand Shark said:

That is what I have read and then they get into all the technical mumbo jumbo that is above my pay grade.   These are people that likely find fault in everything. 

Me personally I like the way it drives and see no issues.  

Cool, if you have any links I love technical mumbo jumbo!  :D

-TJ

 

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On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 11:21 AM, tjZ06 said:

Care to elaborate?  I'm genuinely interested. This is only on the S's? 

 

-TJ
 

Not sure about the RZRs but people were getting close to 4" of bump or toe out through the X3's suspension stroke/travel. Doesn't take a degree, or have to be a racer to understand that it's a pretty significant design flaw for such an advanced machine. Causes kickback at the steering wheel, and the vehicle will not handle anywhere near as good as it should. Can go from an extreme toe out to toe in condition all while going through the suspension stroke.

Means the vehicle is fighting tracking straight as it cycles through the suspension. That's why a few vendors make a bump steer kit to correct this. Bump steer geometry is suspension 101 for all motor vehicles.

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14 hours ago, kennerz said:

Not sure about the RZRs but people were getting close to 4" of bump or toe out through the X3's suspension stroke/travel. Doesn't take a degree, or have to be a racer to understand that it's a pretty significant design flaw for such an advanced machine. Causes kickback at the steering wheel, and the vehicle will not handle anywhere near as good as it should. Can go from an extreme toe out to toe in condition all while going through the suspension stroke.

Means the vehicle is fighting tracking straight as it cycles through the suspension. That's why a few vendors make a bump steer kit to correct this. Bump steer geometry is suspension 101 for all motor vehicles.

Yes, I'm very familiar with bump-steer.  Bump-steer is caused when (roughly) the tie-rods don't travel an arc with the same radius as the control arms.  The distance on the absolute horizontal plane between the spindle-side mounting point and the chassis-side mounting point of the control arms and tie rods will change at different rates, meaning the tie-rod will be "steering" the wheels either in or out as you hit bumps.  We spent a LOT of time working on bump-steer in my racing days.  The C5 Z06 I used to race was pretty good on the front from the factory, but would actually toe-out in droop conditions in the rear (the C5 has upper and lower A-arms all around, in the rear it has a "toe link" that is basically a tie-rod mounted to the subframe, rather than a steering rack).  This could make the C5s a bit unpredictable under braking as the rear-end rises, and is often why people will say C5s have "snap over-steer."  With a little adjustment you can clear the issue up and the car becomes way more stable under braking. 

mustang-bumpsteer-explained-21.png

A good visual representation of bump-steer is to look at a pic of a Funco in the air, then look at a pic of the same Funco "hard-parked" with the bags emptied out.  Now, to be clear I am NOT knocking Funco.  Obviously they work exceptionally well, and at some point with enough travel it's impossible to eliminate ALL bump steer.  

Anyway, I was very aware this is a big issue with the X3.  As much as I "want to want" the new 195 HP RR model, stuff like that and all the single-shear stuff in the front end really holds me back. 

 

 

I'd like to see the threads talking about RZR suspension geometry issues, because I wasn't really aware of any inherent design flaws like that - but I have only ever had 64" models or aftermarket long travels, I've never had an "S." 

 

-TJ
 

Edited by tjZ06

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Yes the RZR has a bunch of bump steer and track width changes as the front suspension cycles. I can’t remember the exact measurement, but it was in the inches. Power steering masks the problem as you don’t feel the feedback in the steering wheel. Much is due to not running unequal a-arms, putting the tie rods behind the a-arms and cycle arc. 

Worse is the rear suspension.  Cycle the rear suspension of a RZR and you will see track width & toe changes. Basically it’s like rear steer, and causing you to constantly correct to go strait. With a locked differential and when each rear wheel is aiming different directions as the suspension travels, it causes that side to side swap.

Also the track width changes are measured in the inches from droop to full compression. A 64 inch wide car at droop is probable closer to 59 inches. If the tire has to move on & out out to go up & down, then it’s moving around the arc. The tire sidewall now has loaded weight on it that causes the car to hop side to side. Just jack up a RZR and then set it back down. You will see load on the tire side wall as it can’t settle to ride hight, even if you push down on the rear of the car. You must roll if forward for it to settle down. I want to say the total track width changes through the full cycle was 10 inches? Remember both wheels don’t move the same amount at the same time. So now your rear wheel are constantly pointing different directions. (Rear Steer) 

That is what is impressive with the Robby Gordon  designed WildcatXX suspension. It’s nothing special that we already know & do in racing and with your sand car. How many race cars & buggies do you see with the tie rods behind the  spindle & arms?  None, because it does not work right. Unequal front a-arms, keep the bump steer to a minimum, reduces scrub when turning and adds negative camber which helps keep the tread center on the ground. The rear trailing arm follows the travel arc, keeping the track width the same through the travel and keeps the tires pointing strait. 

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Better showroom appeal.

Front suspensions will still collapse like a fat man in a cheap beach chair. It’s happened too many times on simple bumps to myself and others in our group. 

What a feeling to be out on the dunes and suddenly your front suspension taco’s. 

Good  running engines. I’ll spot Polaris that plus. 

Edited by Dune Bandits

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On 8/31/2019 at 8:32 PM, kennerz said:

Not sure about the RZRs but people were getting close to 4" of bump or toe out through the X3's suspension stroke/travel. Doesn't take a degree, or have to be a racer to understand that it's a pretty significant design flaw for such an advanced machine. Causes kickback at the steering wheel, and the vehicle will not handle anywhere near as good as it should. Can go from an extreme toe out to toe in condition all while going through the suspension stroke.

Means the vehicle is fighting tracking straight as it cycles through the suspension. That's why a few vendors make a bump steer kit to correct this. Bump steer geometry is suspension 101 for all motor vehicles.

I’ve had the steering wheel blindside me and kick so hard - not expecting it and would have bet anyone my thumbs were broken. 

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On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 12:09 AM, NIKAL said:

Yes the RZR has a bunch of bump steer and track width changes as the front suspension cycles. I can’t remember the exact measurement, but it was in the inches. Power steering masks the problem as you don’t feel the feedback in the steering wheel. Much is due to not running unequal a-arms, putting the tie rods behind the a-arms and cycle arc. 

Worse is the rear suspension.  Cycle the rear suspension of a RZR and you will see track width & toe changes. Basically it’s like rear steer, and causing you to constantly correct to go strait. With a locked differential and when each rear wheel is aiming different directions as the suspension travels, it causes that side to side swap.

Also the track width changes are measured in the inches from droop to full compression. A 64 inch wide car at droop is probable closer to 59 inches. If the tire has to move on & out out to go up & down, then it’s moving around the arc. The tire sidewall now has loaded weight on it that causes the car to hop side to side. Just jack up a RZR and then set it back down. You will see load on the tire side wall as it can’t settle to ride hight, even if you push down on the rear of the car. You must roll if forward for it to settle down. I want to say the total track width changes through the full cycle was 10 inches? Remember both wheels don’t move the same amount at the same time. So now your rear wheel are constantly pointing different directions. (Rear Steer) 

That is what is impressive with the Robby Gordon  designed WildcatXX suspension. It’s nothing special that we already know & do in racing and with your sand car. How many race cars & buggies do you see with the tie rods behind the  spindle & arms?  None, because it does not work right. Unequal front a-arms, keep the bump steer to a minimum, reduces scrub when turning and adds negative camber which helps keep the tread center on the ground. The rear trailing arm follows the travel arc, keeping the track width the same through the travel and keeps the tires pointing strait. 

Most people don't drive them hard enough to notice or just think that his how an off-road toy is suppose to drive.  The X3 front end has horrible bumpsteer on the 72" wide models.  Not sure how much the rear changes as it cycles.

On my X3 it was not too bad in the sand other than the occasional power steering overloading and turning off a nanosecond.  The steering wheel would try to rip right out of my hand.   When I got to the dirt it was the most awful driving experience and to make it even worse I have 32" tires on a 5+2 off-set wheel.   Huge bump steer, shitty power steering, and big wider off-set was a combo for feeling like you were holding on to a jack hammer with all the feed back and the wheel constantly fighting.  The car would dart all over.

I added the bump steer kit and aligned my front toe to be around 1/8" in instead of the 1/2 toe out it came with from the factory.  This helped out a lot.  My X3 was no longer darty and it lessened the feedback in the steering wheel.  Did shock work and the helped even more (the X3 soaked up the bumps instead of bouncing off them).   The only think that still sucked was my power steering.  The 2018 unit in the non-smart lok units is a underpowered POS.   Luckily I found out you can upgrade to the 2019 power steering unit, which is much more powerful.    Adding the power steering unit was the final piece.  

The Wildcat XX suspension design is fantastic and I am still surprised the other manufactures have not moved the tie-rods forward. 

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All the post above echo what I'm saying. These carts are getting really close, but for some reason they can't seem to get the whole thing right. The Wildcat XX seems to have a lot of great design ideas. Just cut corners on driveline durability. A real turbo motor close to the magic 200hp with the driveline built as beefy as the suspension and they would have a real winner.

 

The X3 RR is good in a lot of areas but like was mentioned above(all the fixes required), these are some large oversights by the engineering teams. Also it's very apparent that some of the metal thicknesses in key strength areas is thin to the point  where it's not really adequate for the machine's capabilities. I want to buy one but that kinda stuff out of the box is a turn off. Tells me for all of can-am's design hit's there is still a lot of misses.

The other top models to me are behind the can-am and have more flaws and long term durability issues, so they are not even in the conversation to me. Maybe Polaris is better than what I've seen, but they just don't seem to have long term durability unless you really baby them  and keep the mileage low. The Xp pro seems better engineered, but still no wide version, & is kinda funky looking to me.

 can't win - yet. maybe in 2~3 years the next generation of machines will have everything mentioned above resolved.

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