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Is this build over my head???

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Posted (edited)

This is my car. It was built as a beam car, now sports boxed A arms and a V8. Although I didn’t perform the modifications myself, it was put together right here where it sits by me. I don’t feel unsafe in it. 

I don’t recall Jones’n posting where had fabricated anything himself, he had a shop do it for him. He’s just like the other million off roaders out there building their own trucks to go out and have fun with. Isn’t that what the whole offroad business model is, DIY?

Why can’t you guys just be a little more supportive of him and not drive him away from here? Not everyone buys a complete car or SxS to use in the dunes. There are hundreds of build threads here where guys put together their machines in the garage. I don’t hear very often that they were killed off roading. 

As far as asking which way a clutch disc goes  in, back off of that too. I’m a 33 year veteran GM tech/ shop foreman and I consult the service manual about 100 times a day even though I’ve done a particular job many times. Does that make me an idiot too? 

Its definitely still summertime. 😎

image.jpg

Edited by fortyfour

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1 hour ago, fortyfour said:

Its definitely still summertime. 😎

What we need is a good Ghost Camping thread.

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6 minutes ago, SofaKing said:

What we need is a good Ghost Camping thread.

I’m waiting on the “Are they pulling over fifth wheels” 

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I'd be willing to bet that Jonsin's car would hold up better in a crash than a stock RZR or CanAm!   

 

Just sayin, :jeff:

~jw

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Wow I guess instead of reading my posts and trying to understand the questions I’ve raised it’s just easier to get pissed and assume I don’t know what I’m talking about because I haven’t posted a pic of a car that I’ve owned or the fact that currently I drive a rzr! I’ve been in the off-road industry my whole life. I’m 43 and I’ve owned 7 dirt bikes( 2 90’ cr500’s, 01 and 00 yz250, 85’kx500, tt50, xr100), three zingers, a honda 70 4trx, Suzuki 160 quad, two 86’trx 250r’s, Yamaha blaster, 04’trx450r, Suzuki 400 quad, 1 turbo rzr800, 1 4 seat xp1000, 1 2 seat turbo xp, 1 Baja bug, 2 chenowith 2 seat rear engine buggies, 2 j&j 2 seat mid engine a-arm cars, 1 Mazzone mid engine 4 seat car, 1 early model 4 seat Alumicraft sand car, and my last car was a 4 seat JP Designs ls1/s4 car. The JP car is the only car I bought turnkey. All the others were rollers or repowered. Now I guess I need to locate pics of all the stuff I owned for proof? I have plenty of knowledge and have no problem sharing it. I like build threads and think it’s cool that people want to work on their own things. It helps you to learn about your car and save money at the same time. BUT there are limitations and that is the question I am asking about. Maybe I’m taking some of this too personal because it hits too close to home. Without hurting anymore feelings I will quickly try to describe this.

I own a circular saw, framing hammers, levels, speed squares, plumb bobs, hammer drills, and tons of cordless tools. I have every tool needed to do a room addition on a home. I can pretty much figure out how to do it on my own but what I don’t know I’m sure I can just figure it out by googling or asking my buddies that do it for a living. This isn’t something to just take on because it sounds fun. There are tons of safety factors I don’t know about which makes me STOP and say this is over my head and I should leave this to a professional. Just because I have the tools doesn’t make me a Carpenter. Just as replacing your thermostat in your house doesn’t make you an HVAC technician. Same as buying RAID and killing insects around your house doesn’t make you a professional at pest control. I hope this is making some kind of sense? We can all pretty much buy the tools and products needed to complete any task. The question I made was when do you think that your project is over your head and do you listen to it? As for me, being a field mechanic for 14 years, I had a stick welder on my service truck. If something broke and our welding crew was tied up, I could lay down a couple beads to get it by. In our shop, I welded plenty with our mig welders. Most all of my fab work on my sand cars I welded myself. If it was something crucial I left it to our welding crew to do it because my safety and the safety of others was more important than just to be able to say I did it all myself. So when I bought my JP car, I had the know how and the tools but no way in hell was I gonna weld a complete chassis on my own. That is what should be left for the pro’s. So I opted to buy my first and only turn key brand new car. 

As for you Jonesin, your taking my example I made super personal. Take a step back and think about what I said with anger aside. If you don’t know what direction your clutch disc goes ( it can only go one way ) then is it over your head? Yes it is and that’s why you asked the question. Same as for all the other questions you asked about building your car. You asked the questions because the task was over your head and you needed answers. But after asking so many questions about how to build your car, when do you STOP and ask yourself if maybe it’s just beyond your knowledge and maybe it should be left to the pros? Sometimes things are just not under our control. We all have limitations and it makes you a bigger man to admit what they are. 

 

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23 hours ago, Jonesin' said:

Exactly what I did.  Bought a complete used car. I wouldn’t attempt to start from scratch.

Who built the chassis? What kind of tubing? What type of welds? 

Is the Ackerman correct? How is the bump steer? Caster and camber correct? What's the toe in? What angle is on the torsion tubes? How much anti-dive and anti-squat are built in?

Those are questions I'd ask, and I don't know that much about chassis or suspension design. 

At a certain level, people have no idea the complexities of what they're looking at and don't realize  the extent of their ignorance. They literally don't know enough to ask all of the right questions. The next step up from that is when you realize what you don't know and you rely on the experts to build it and know how to take into account all of those details.

 

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2 hours ago, jwest2sh said:

I'd be willing to bet that Jonsin's car would hold up better in a crash than a stock RZR or CanAm!   

 

Just sayin, :jeff:

~jw

Are you talking about the chassis, or does that include the suspension?

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15 minutes ago, socaldmax said:

Are you talking about the chassis, or does that include the suspension?

Both...but mainly the cage in a crash. A rollerover in the sand in a RZR often results in a bent cage...and my buddy folded up a trailing arm backing down a Razorback  two years ago. 

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2 hours ago, socaldmax said:

Who built the chassis? What kind of tubing? What type of welds? 

Is the Ackerman correct? How is the bump steer? Caster and camber correct? What's the toe in? What angle is on the torsion tubes? How much anti-dive and anti-squat are built in?

Those are questions I'd ask, and I don't know that much about chassis or suspension design. 

At a certain level, people have no idea the complexities of what they're looking at and don't realize  the extent of their ignorance. They literally don't know enough to ask all of the right questions. The next step up from that is when you realize what you don't know and you rely on the experts to build it and know how to take into account all of those details.

 

Most of the "Experts" out there have no idea either.  I bought a name brand car, Desert Dynamics, that had a ton of bump steer and plenty of other geometry issues.  I took it to Dustin at AG sandcars (another name brand Expert) who proceeded to F it up worse!  I fixed most of the issues with my car myself....by asking questions on this board and getting input from other friends in the off road industry.

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8 hours ago, jwest2sh said:

Most of the "Experts" out there have no idea either.  I bought a name brand car, Desert Dynamics, that had a ton of bump steer and plenty of other geometry issues.  I took it to Dustin at AG sandcars (another name brand Expert) who proceeded to F it up worse!  I fixed most of the issues with my car myself....by asking questions on this board and getting input from other friends in the off road industry.

Thank God sand is forgiving! These are not road race cars for the most part. Yes you want it as close as you can get it, but having come from collision repair and taking extreme interest in wheel alignments (2 and 4) there is much room for error. Hope it never gets to the alignment requirement of Ferrari, yes I've done that. 

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9 hours ago, jwest2sh said:

Most of the "Experts" out there have no idea either.  I bought a name brand car, Desert Dynamics, that had a ton of bump steer and plenty of other geometry issues.  I took it to Dustin at AG sandcars (another name brand Expert) who proceeded to F it up worse!  I fixed most of the issues with my car myself....by asking questions on this board and getting input from other friends in the off road industry.

I don't think that's a typical experience. I'm sorry you went through all of that, but most people don't have to deal with that on a name brand car, or if it's not great it can be adjusted fairly easily.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, socaldmax said:

Who built the chassis? What kind of tubing? What type of welds? 

Is the Ackerman correct? How is the bump steer? Caster and camber correct? What's the toe in? What angle is on the torsion tubes? How much anti-dive and anti-squat are built in?

Those are questions I'd ask, and I don't know that much about chassis or suspension design. 

At a certain level, people have no idea the complexities of what they're looking at and don't realize  the extent of their ignorance. They literally don't know enough to ask all of the right questions. The next step up from that is when you realize what you don't know and you rely on the experts to build it and know how to take into account all of those details.

 

Ackerman doesn't really matter a whole hell of a lot from a going fast and having fun standpoint since it doesn't really coming into play until you're going really slow with a lot of steering angle (super small dunes, but even anti-ackerman will still turn, just not as well).  A buggy is something meant to be driven at the limit, so you're probably not putting much steering angle into it (except countersteer for drifting), you're transferring most of the weight off the inside tire, and tire wear is non-existent (almost none of us wear out front tires, just age/damage).  Low-speed cornering on asphalt, tire wear will be slightly degraded, but not much.  Keep in mind that some of the best-handling cars in the world had anti-ackerman (though I wouldn't recommend it for desert).  Same thing goes for bump steer (unless it's really bad), camber (again, unless it's really bad), and anti-geometry (esp with trailing arm rear suspension, since there really isn't much you can do to change it without getting silly).  

Geometry is all about intended use, as no vehicle will get them all right.  Unless you're going to take those answers and determine how that'll translate to driving experience, it's just numbers and gobbledygook.  Even Formula One engineers get it wrong, as once the driver gets in it and finds out he can't confidently drive it at the limit, it's going to be a slower no matter how much the engineers tell him it's faster this way.  Since duning is about fun and experience, not lap times, I wouldn't put too much concern into what the numbers say except maaaaaaaybe caster, as generally speaking you can just look at it and determine how much there is, and driving experience-wise, the more you have, the better the steering feels (within reason).  

I doubt the guys who drove this guy back in the day had a bad time... 

ert.JPG

:bigrin 

Edited by Rockwood

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Yeah, right. Massive bump steer is fun!

You get my point. Unless someone knows what questions to ask, they're in over their head.

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5 minutes ago, socaldmax said:

Yeah, right. Massive bump steer is fun!

You get my point. Unless someone knows what questions to ask, they're in over their head.

LOL, not it's not.  That's why I said within reason good sir. :bigrin 

Unless someone knows what questions to ask, and how those answers all affect each other, they're much better off just driving the thing and saying "this thing blows" or not.  I can spend 3 hours asking these questions and crunching the numbers...

Or I can spend 3-4 minutes behind the wheel.  :bigrin  

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2 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

LOL, not it's not.  That's why I said within reason good sir. :bigrin 

Unless someone knows what questions to ask, and how those answers all affect each other, they're much better off just driving the thing and saying "this thing blows" or not.  I can spend 3 hours asking these questions and crunching the numbers...

Or I can spend 3-4 minutes behind the wheel.  :bigrin  

Sure. Watching a driver get the steering wheel ripped out of his hands on every bump and seeing the car dart every which way after bumps is totally safe.    :sarcasm:

Or they could know enough not to get some pile of parts or a project car that suffers from all of that because the car wasn't in a drivable condition.

Same thing with driving the car. Unless they've driven a top of the line car, what do they have to compare it to? A quad?

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OK, time to weigh in:

If you are going for the high speed or competitive feel.... Uh, no.    You need to get the pros on board.

But for the hobbyist, try something new. See how it works. It is about trying and having fun while learning and expanding your horizons. Not necessarily the high speed sand hiway runs or the massive-air-time jumps that Robbie Gordon just did (I learned the hard way: DON'T DO THAT), the experimenter and learner can putz around and try new things without being a danger to self or friends. Usually the worst thing that happens is getting stranded out in the dunes and coming up with creative solutions to get back to camp. The only reward is a 'never do this' type of story.

If you are "all out" or super competitive, maybe DIY is not for you.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, socaldmax said:

Sure. Watching a driver get the steering wheel ripped out of his hands on every bump and seeing the car dart every which way after bumps is totally safe.    :sarcasm:

Or they could know enough not to get some pile of parts or a project car that suffers from all of that because the car wasn't in a drivable condition.

Same thing with driving the car. Unless they've driven a top of the line car, what do they have to compare it to? A quad?

A car that rips the steering wheel out of your hands on every bump is the very definition of unreasonable and outside the bounds of this discussion.  This car could be easily identified with ye olde eyeballoscope anyway.

Edited by Rockwood

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11 minutes ago, journeyman said:

OK, time to weigh in:

If you are going for the high speed or competitive feel.... Uh, no.    You need to get the pros on board.

But for the hobbyist, try something new. See how it works. It is about trying and having fun while learning and expanding your horizons. Not necessarily the high speed sand hiway runs or the massive-air-time jumps that Robbie Gordon just did (I learned the hard way: DON'T DO THAT), the experimenter and learner can putz around and try new things without being a danger to self or friends. Usually the worst thing that happens is getting stranded out in the dunes and coming up with creative solutions to get back to camp. The only reward is a 'never do this' type of story.

If you are "all out" or super competitive, maybe DIY is not for you.

 

I think safety is a bigger issue.

The 2 guys who broke the front arms, flopped over on the jump and nearly drown in the sand were going 25 mph or less when they hit that jump and the front end dug in. If there hadn't been a crowd there to flip them back over, they could have died. If they were out in the dunes by themselves, they could have hit a small bump or lip and ended up on their lid and probably would have died with no one to rescue them.

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16 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

A car that rips the steering wheel out of your hands on every bump is the very definition of unreasonable and outside the bounds of this discussion.  This car could be easily identified with ye olde eyeballoscope anyway.

If you knew what to look for. That's entirely my point. A lot of people have no clue.

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6 minutes ago, socaldmax said:

If you knew what to look for. That's entirely my point. A lot of people have no clue.

Guess you missed the guys that took 2 pans, cut them in 1/2, welding backends together, 2 motors and transaxles. Flopped r&p in front, put a teepee header on backwards on front motor and try and steer with cutting brakes. Good show!

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17 minutes ago, Richard H said:

Guess you missed the guys that took 2 pans, cut them in 1/2, welding backends together, 2 motors and transaxles. Flopped r&p in front, put a teepee header on backwards on front motor and try and steer with cutting brakes. Good show!

Pics PLEASE!

 

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Just now, journeyman said:

Pics PLEASE!

 

It was back when cameras  used film. Can say it didn't work like on paper though.

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1 hour ago, Richard H said:

Guess you missed the guys that took 2 pans, cut them in 1/2, welding backends together, 2 motors and transaxles. Flopped r&p in front, put a teepee header on backwards on front motor and try and steer with cutting brakes. Good show!

Simultaneous shift, or man-style with 2 shifters? :bigrin 

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11 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

Simultaneous shift, or man-style with 2 shifters? :bigrin 

2 seats, 2 shifters, 1 cutting brake.  It just didn't work as planned.

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Does anyone think this has been taken over the top already?  We aren't building home made aircraft here.

 

 

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