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cali kid

4wd dual sport/ sand cars?

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With KOH blowing up and the ultra 4 scene getting bigger and last years first trophy truck race at KOH and now 4wd trophy trucks coming out do you think 4wd class 1’s or buggies in general will be a thing of the future? Watcha think?

Edited by cali kid

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If I had the money, I would want one.

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I don't see the advantage for a sandrail.

 

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9 minutes ago, 1newbie said:

I don't see the advantage for a sandrail.

 

Absolutely four tires driving are better than two even for a sandrail. It would just get really expensive. 

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Umm these are called SXS’s

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There was a 4 wheel drive sandrail listed for sale here awhile back. Was up in north Scottsdale. It was literally a sandrail chassis with some sort of front drive, I don’t recall the setup 

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Imagine having to go through 8 cv’s instead of 4, or better yet buying 8 cv’s! Lol 

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Jon Moseley At mosebuilt...built the only all wheel drive buggy I've ever seen driving around completed right? It belonged to someone here on the board, I think he may have even built a second one

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3 hours ago, cali kid said:

With KOH blowing up and the ultra 4 scene getting bigger and last years first trophy truck race at KOH and now 4wd trophy trucks coming out do you think 4wd class 1’s or buggies in general will be a thing of the future? Watcha think?

No, its been done.

herbst tried it a while back. I hear there are a couple finished and a few in the pipeline

the problem remains, lack of wheel travel, need stronger driveline joints, steering is limited too with 4wd.

someone will crack the code one day

Edited by sausage450r

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Rhys Millen Racing has a 4wd class 1 car that looks a lot more like a smaller class 10 car, similar in size to some of the larger sand rails out there .  Unsure if it’s a first, or not, but it’s really cool.  Personally, I don’t see the value for sand rails.  The extra weight, driveline loss, and most importantly cost, are all downsides that I don’t feel are worth it.  

SXS’s can benefit from 4wd because the HP to weight ratio is too low in my opinion.  I always drove my XP1k in 2wd, it was just way more fun.  Had to keep the momentum going or 4wd was required to get moving again.  

Edited by evantwheeler

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13 minutes ago, evantwheeler said:

Rhys Millen Racing has a 4wd class 1 car that looks a lot more like a smaller class 10 car, similar in size to some of the larger sand rails out there .  Unsure if it’s a first, or not, but it’s really cool.  Personally, I don’t see the value for sand rails.  The extra weight, driveline loss, and most importantly cost, are all downsides that I don’t feel are worth it.  

SXS’s can benefit from 4wd because the HP to weight ratio is too low in my opinion.  I always drove my XP1k in 2wd, it was just way more fun.  Had to keep the momentum going or 4wd was required to get moving again.  

Remember this 10 car? Cantilever/chain drive. 

there was another 10 car, chain drive with hydraulic rams like a tractor (i dont think they ever got it right though)

someone will come up with a game changer, then we can all buy cheap obsolete trophy trucks

B7AB1A85-8142-4D25-BAA9-107F6FF08BAA.jpeg

Edited by sausage450r

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I try to keep the front up in the air most of the time,  lol,  

 

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1 hour ago, 2turbofords said:

Jon Moseley At mosebuilt...built the only all wheel drive buggy I've ever seen driving around completed right? It belonged to someone here on the board, I think he may have even built a second one

Yes, he built that for jimandmelissa. He was going to build a bigger, better version, but AFAIK, it never got finished.

The first one was pretty interesting and had a lot of good features, I thought.

It used a 4 cyl Tacoma drivetrain that was reversed. The engine and stock trans were mounted backwards and drove the rear diff that was mounted in the front, the front diff was mounted in the rear. Both diffs were cut down and used axles and CVs. The engine was right behind the seats, the trans was between the seats. All 4 hubs were identical off the shelf Ford or Chevy parts, and the axles were all stock front CVs from a 4WD Chevy or Ford. There were no coilovers, it used long torsion bars, the front ones were adjusted near the rear tires, the rear ones were adjusted up by the front tires. This version was tabbed for dual shocks all around, using regular Bilstein truck shocks, nothing fancy. The spindles were identical front and rear, the front had power steering and the rear had adjustable rods to adjust toe in/out, but rear steering could be added by simply mounting a steering ram. The fuel system was propane in a fiberglass tank mounted in the rear, over the trans and rear diff. The propane allowed the engine to run at any angle, eliminating fuel starvation and it idled at 300 rpm with good torque at idle. I think he kept stock gearing, so with 35" tires, it ran slightly faster than a stock Tacoma in high, and could crawl extremely well in 4 lo. It was basically a very well thought out, budget KOH contender, because it had amazing ground clearance and quite a bit of travel, 26" or so, I think.

The only corner they cut was it wasn't chromo, so the bottom rails had a lot of dings and was pretty easily bashed up from rocks.

The bigger version was going to use the V8 drivetrain from a Tundra, chromo chassis/suspension, portals at the wheels, and a raised center section, in addition to bypass shocks still using the torsion bar suspension. I think the torsion bar suspension is sheer genius. Tons of travel without the weight of coilover shocks and springs, easy adjustability in ride height and spring rate. All of the heavy drivetrain parts were nice and low, propane is a great fuel for rock crawling.   Overall, it had a lot of innovative ideas I haven't seen in any other buggy and some creative solutions to common issues.

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Last season we ran into a guy at the palapa with a home built 4wd  buggy with a Toyota 4x4 Powertrain it was a little red 2 seater.

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15 hours ago, cali kid said:

With KOH blowing up and the ultra 4 scene getting bigger and last years first trophy truck race at KOH and now 4wd trophy trucks coming out do you think 4wd class 1’s or buggies in general will be a thing of the future? Watcha think?

Rhys Millen already has a 4wd Class 1 he has been racing.   

 

 

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12 hours ago, sausage450r said:

No, its been done.

herbst tried it a while back. I hear there are a couple finished and a few in the pipeline

the problem remains, lack of wheel travel, need stronger driveline joints, steering is limited too with 4wd.

someone will crack the code one day

The Awd trophy trucks are working out the bugs and will be consistently on the podium.  Bryce just won the Vegas to Reno race and he should of won it the year before but for a jack failure with less than 30 miles to go.   He has finished just about every race he has entered with his truck.

Mason Motorsports has them pretty dialed in.  Enough to make Andy McMillin switch after he has won the San Felipe 250 and Baja 500.  He will be debuting his new truck at the Baja 400.

Robby Gordon is finishing up his Awd truck and it should make it to the Baja 1000.  BJ Baldwin is also has one in the works.  

I think the cost of building a 4wd sandrail/buggy would keep most away.   

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With a few modifications, it would be interesting to see how these perform in Glamis.

 

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Did the Ultra4 buggy for 7 years as a Tri sport, raced KOH twice,  top 20 KOH finish in 4400 class. It was good for the AZ desert trails, extremely good at rock crawling, and ok in the dunes but once the SXSs upgraded to longer travel turbo cars it was hard to keep up and almost effortless for them and tons of work in a 4,600Lb ultra4. Dunes are continuous turning and up and down so moving that much weight in the turns and climb after climb is a lot of work.  In the past few years I was only doing one rock crawling trip per year and all other trips were dunes. So I sold it and bought a class 1 to use as a dual sport, should be much better in the dunes and desert with much less weight but lost the rock crawling thing completely.

Mine was a solid axle car and its suspension was plenty good for dunes but the new class 1 independent suspension is next level, I like how a rear engine car can jump with no weight on the nose.

 

 

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On 9/10/2019 at 10:51 AM, rpmsrup said:

1

00F0F_YEJ0f0F0kV_600x450.jpg00w0w_aOjkZ5nLRRW_600x450.jpg

 

That driveline looks safe :scared:

 

couple races isnt proof. Herbst went away from it because of its limitations. Their driveline was solid, just lacked travel and steering. When they start consistantly winning and finishing the rough and long races we can say the future is here. We are still many years out

i think the real answer to the 4wd problem is way outside the box in gas power with 4 direct electric drive motors. 

Edited by sausage450r

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On 9/9/2019 at 8:02 PM, Blue-Jay said:

Absolutely four tires driving are better than two even for a sandrail. It would just get really expensive. 

I dunno.  I have an X3 too and the wife drives it in dunes in 4wd but I prefer two. I prefer The handling and so I break less crap. Would be same in Sandcar I’m sure. I’d not use 4wd so I didnt need to service the front cvs as often lol

 

 

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1 hour ago, sausage450r said:

That driveline looks safe :scared:

 

couple races isnt proof. Herbst went away from it because of its limitations. Their driveline was solid, just lacked travel and steering. When they start consistantly winning and finishing the rough and long races we can say the future is here. We are still many years out

i think the real answer to the 4wd problem is way outside the box in gas power with 4 direct electric drive motors. 

 

What the Herbst did many years ago is no where near what the current stable of Awd trucks run.  I don't think the Herbst set up was running portals, not did they have  the luxury of the current  Awd systems.    

The Awd trucks have been finishing races and winning - Matney won a BITD championship in an AWD truck.   Bryce has done quite well in the Baja races.  I expect Andy to have a strong finish at the 400 next weekend. 

 If you don't think it is the future then you are missing the writing all over the walls.  There is a reason a lot of the  top trophy truck drivers are making the switch and why Mason motorsports has a long wait list for them to build them.  Robby Gordon believes in it so much he already has applied for patents. 

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1 hour ago, Jetjock15 said:

I dunno.  I have an X3 too and the wife drives it in dunes in 4wd but I prefer two. I prefer The handling and so I break less crap. Would be same in Sandcar I’m sure. I’d not use 4wd so I didnt need to service the front cvs as often lol

 

 

Actually 4wd is much better in the dunes and less stress.   2wd is fun, but you get a lot more tire spin in a UTV, which usually results in belts going boom sooner, rather than later.   Not to mention they just handle a lot better.     No need to service CVs on a UTV, like a sandcar.  

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2 hours ago, ASHMAN said:

Did the Ultra4 buggy for 7 years as a Tri sport, raced KOH twice,  top 20 KOH finish in 4400 class. It was good for the AZ desert trails, extremely good at rock crawling, and ok in the dunes but once the SXSs upgraded to longer travel turbo cars it was hard to keep up and almost effortless for them and tons of work in a 4,600Lb ultra4. Dunes are continuous turning and up and down so moving that much weight in the turns and climb after climb is a lot of work.  In the past few years I was only doing one rock crawling trip per year and all other trips were dunes. So I sold it and bought a class 1 to use as a dual sport, should be much better in the dunes and desert with much less weight but lost the rock crawling thing completely.

Mine was a solid axle car and its suspension was plenty good for dunes but the new class 1 independent suspension is next level, I like how a rear engine car can jump with no weight on the nose.

 

 

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The new buggy will be a lot more fun in the dunes and you will be able to pass the wife in her X3 with no effort.  Your Ultra4 was a sweet set up.   Was it the dune trip last New Years that made the decision  for you after chasing myself, Paul, Jason and Andy around?  

Hope to see you out in Glamis this season!

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