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SXS Weld Porn or Weld Horror?


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41 minutes ago, Lord of the Dunes said:

Speaking logically, it doesn't have one, so it's impossible to do so. In other words, the DCT is it's main selling point.

That sounds the same as what NIKAL posted.

As a few of us have said, the DCT would be a major part of any dream UTV, it's a great transmission. If Honda had put out a factory 200hp turbo engine from the beginning, they probably could have seriously stolen a bunch of customers from Polaris and CanAm, since most people don't look past the hp numbers.   

Nikal did not say that the DCT was the the main selling point he said, Take away the trans and the Honda offers nothing worth buying imo.” That’s not the same. 

I was trying to add a little humor by saying that the entire Honda Talon crossed the finish line not just the transmission. I guess it hit a sore spot with you and a few others. 

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5 minutes ago, NIKAL said:

Fog, I did say that and I apologize as this was a thread about manufacture welds and I gave my opinion on something other then that. 
 

Each brand and model has it’s good points and niche where it will excel over another model. What works for one person might not for another.

Id like to keep this discussion on topic and civil. If this topic has been discussed enough, someone can start a new SXS topic thread to discuss. Maybe a top 3 things liked about a particular model? 

I appreciate your apology and agree with your comment on what works for one might not work for another.
I posted the above at the same time that you posted this. I will not make any comments in this thread unless they pertain to welds. 

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3 minutes ago, FOG said:

Nikal did not say that the DCT was the the main selling point he said, Take away the trans and the Honda offers nothing worth buying imo.” That’s not the same. 

I was trying to add a little humor by saying that the entire Honda Talon crossed the finish line not just the transmission. I guess it hit a sore spot with you and a few others. 

I have no feelings about the Talon, one way or another. When it first came out I heard it had a DCT and that's about it. I don't recall anyone raving about the power or any other aspect of it. 

You certainly got defensive when it was discussed in this thread. I understand, a lot of people defend their purchases. Most of them do it from an emotional standpoint, rather than any actual technical reason.

Is it popular? Have they sold a lot of them?

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1 hour ago, Lord of the Dunes said:

I have no feelings about the Talon, one way or another. When it first came out I heard it had a DCT and that's about it. I don't recall anyone raving about the power or any other aspect of it. 

You certainly got defensive when it was discussed in this thread. I understand, a lot of people defend their purchases. Most of them do it from an emotional standpoint, rather than any actual technical reason.

Is it popular? Have they sold a lot of them?

The Speed UTV welds appear to be very attractive. 

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21 minutes ago, FOG said:

The Speed UTV welds appear to be very attractive. 

For the time being....RG heads home and who knows what may happen after.

 

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I thought the frames were welded in the US.  Shipping those would be expensive.  He showed the robot welding long before the China trip I thought.

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31 minutes ago, Kat-A-Tonic said:

I thought the frames were welded in the US.  Shipping those would be expensive.  He showed the robot welding long before the China trip I thought.

I thought the same thing on both counts. I can't imagine how much shipping costs for all of those parts. The chassis is pretty bulky, I imagine they could pack the suspension and other parts inside of the chassis, but they can't stuff too many of those in a shipping container. I'm guessing he's gotta be saving a lot of money on materials and welding by doing it over there.

Between inflation and rising shipping costs, this really is a bad time to be in the mfg business.

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6 hours ago, Lord of the Dunes said:

Speaking logically, it doesn't have one, so it's impossible to do so. In other words, the DCT is it's main selling point.

That sounds the same as what NIKAL posted.

As a few of us have said, the DCT would be a major part of any dream UTV, it's a great transmission. If Honda had put out a factory 200hp turbo engine from the beginning, they probably could have seriously stolen a bunch of customers from Polaris and CanAm, since most people don't look past the hp numbers.   

When I was looking at SXS's a couple of years ago, the lack of a factory turbo kept me from purchasing the Talon. Ended up with a Polaris until the Speed arrives.

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Kind of like give me a Chevy with an Allison, a Cummins and a straight axle of a Ford and I would be one happy camper.

A know a lot of guys that would love that set up or something along those lines

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Is it common practice for the UTV Manufacturers race teams to re-weld all of the welds?  Do they just put in some gussets as required?

Or do the manufacturers race teams hand build their UTVs, including all of the welds and tubing from the ground up?

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12 minutes ago, FOG said:

Is it common practice for the UTV Manufacturers race teams to re-weld all of the welds?  Do they just put in some gussets as required?

Or do the manufacturers race teams hand build their UTVs, including all of the welds and tubing from the ground up?

Normally the chassis on the open and non regulated classes have custom chassis. It's common practice. 

I raced against Matlock at D38 and he brought out the Jimco RZR. Literally a RZR chassis built by Jimco. They are all like that unless you're in the Pro Stock class which requires a stock frame, stock pickup points and stock ball joints/steering. 

 

At minimum the chassis are completely re-gusseted and reinforced in addition to a new top half.

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14 minutes ago, FOG said:

Is it common practice for the UTV Manufacturers race teams to re-weld all of the welds?  Do they just put in some gussets as required?

Or do the manufacturers race teams hand build their UTVs, including all of the welds and tubing from the ground up?

Lots of race teams remake the chassis…

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Ya know what would really make this thread awesome?  

Everyone posting in it taking a welding test, with results to follow...  LOL

 

Count down to first google image searched "awesome weld" example..

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33 minutes ago, Kraut_n_Rice said:

Ya know what would really make this thread awesome?  

Everyone posting in it taking a welding test, with results to follow...  LOL

 

Count down to first google image searched "awesome weld" example..

I might be able to have some fun with this. 

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2 hours ago, FOG said:

Is it common practice for the UTV Manufacturers race teams to re-weld all of the welds?  Do they just put in some gussets as required?

Or do the manufacturers race teams hand build their UTVs, including all of the welds and tubing from the ground up?

Per the Score & BITD rules for the Pro Turbo and Pro NA classes you must keep the factory OEM suspension points and tubes they attach to. The OEM center main rails that attach the front & rear sections together.  You must keep the stock frame where the engine & trans mount. Everything else is cut off and re fabricated. You can gusset or reinforce the OEM parts left. Most reweld, plate or gusset to add strength. The new Open classes allow full aftermarket frames like what Geiser is making for the X3. 
 

Here is how much of the Polaris OEM chassis is left after cutting everything else off. This is Brandon Sims Polaris OEM chassis that Lone Star built his last race car from. 
5FEDAB1C-D84E-4FC7-AFDE-D3290A5F3A09.thumb.jpeg.6f08197d74326e98d21b86ddd6d7c83e.jpeg

 

Here is a Lone Star Honda Talon chassis. The red tubes are OEM, the rest is hand built. There are a few red square tubes under the floor you can’t see. But not much is left compared to stock. 
B2672E7F-972F-45E6-8597-0E26D1589F0C.thumb.jpeg.e6f5193165c27eee55ba194dee13f5cd.jpeg
 

Here is a Jamie Campbell Raceco Honda Talon Score race car based on a 2 seat chassis. 
0E5B71C2-913E-4304-959D-C7386AD6C7CE.thumb.jpeg.38cce133f5f458707dcc1b50ae3658ac.jpeg
 

Here is a Raceco 4 seat chassis built into a 2 seat race car. Hard to see as the OEM chassis is black, but there’s more hand crafted chassis then OEM. 
61408022-000F-424E-9DE8-E7524FCE9C86.thumb.jpeg.e46f9e921e61cf560c883ec09e704cef.jpeg

 

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I feel like this is really taking posts away from the Speed thread. 

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On 6/21/2022 at 9:46 PM, Rockwood said:

I feel like this is really taking posts away from the Speed thread. 

But we gotta help SS get to 200!

 

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On 6/21/2022 at 9:40 PM, NIKAL said:

Per the Score & BITD rules for the Pro Turbo and Pro NA classes you must keep the factory OEM suspension points and tubes they attach to. The OEM center main rails that attach the front & rear sections together.  You must keep the stock frame where the engine & trans mount. Everything else is cut off and re fabricated. You can gusset or reinforce the OEM parts left. Most reweld, plate or gusset to add strength. The new Open classes allow full aftermarket frames like what Geiser is making for the X3. 
 

Here is how much of the Polaris OEM chassis is left after cutting everything else off. This is Brandon Sims Polaris OEM chassis that Lone Star built his last race car from. 
5FEDAB1C-D84E-4FC7-AFDE-D3290A5F3A09.thumb.jpeg.6f08197d74326e98d21b86ddd6d7c83e.jpeg

 

Here is a Lone Star Honda Talon chassis. The red tubes are OEM, the rest is hand built. There are a few red square tubes under the floor you can’t see. But not much is left compared to stock. 
B2672E7F-972F-45E6-8597-0E26D1589F0C.thumb.jpeg.e6f5193165c27eee55ba194dee13f5cd.jpeg
 

Here is a Jamie Campbell Raceco Honda Talon Score race car based on a 2 seat chassis. 
0E5B71C2-913E-4304-959D-C7386AD6C7CE.thumb.jpeg.38cce133f5f458707dcc1b50ae3658ac.jpeg
 

Here is a Raceco 4 seat chassis built into a 2 seat race car. Hard to see as the OEM chassis is black, but there’s more hand crafted chassis then OEM. 
61408022-000F-424E-9DE8-E7524FCE9C86.thumb.jpeg.e46f9e921e61cf560c883ec09e704cef.jpeg

 

Wow thanks for educating us non Racers!  That being said, Speed is supposed to be ready to race out of the box right?  I mean RG I believe had always claimed that back in show 1-99? Not that I'd race or anything but if true then thats pretty bad ass.

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1 hour ago, JBL said:

Wow thanks for educating us non Racers!  That being said, Speed is supposed to be ready to race out of the box right?  I mean RG I believe had always claimed that back in show 1-99? Not that I'd race or anything but if true then thats pretty bad ass.

Yes Robby’s claim is that unlike the competitors chassis, you would not have to cut it all out and redo it, as it’s already got proper design & triangulation like a proper buggy chassis would have, minus door bars. The production chassis is made from .095 DOM material with Chromoly boxed plate rear shock mounts tied into a back bone in the chassis, The suspension is all chromoly boxed plated arms also. You would need to weld the upper cage bung joints, but the upper cage material is also DOM, .095 with proper triangulation and gussets required by Score to be legal. 
 

To be honest It’s not about the Speed Chassis being race legal right out of the box, it’s about being built proper like any buggy or race chassis. They are built that way as it’s strong and proven. So Robby is not necessarily designing his car to to be a production race car, but to be built right with the same design & technology that has been raced and how he has done it for decades in many forms of Motorsports. 
 

Robbys education & experience is not just Baja racing. The designs and components used in the Speed UTV came from racing & building Score Baja buggies, TT’s & prerunners. But also from his Indy cars days, his NASCAR days, his Dakar days, and creating SST. In each form of Motorsports Robby was involved in the team, engineering and design of those vehicles and that is shown in the Speed UTV. 
 

 

 

 

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I should have gone to see one when they came thru my area, didn't go to SSSS either.

:crusty:

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5 hours ago, JBL said:

But we gotta help SS get to 200!

 

Speaking of that little devil. Where has he been lately? Haven’t seen any posts from him in a while. Don’t say it LOTD, there’s no way he’s adding anymore gussets to his gussets.:rofl: @Sand Shark where you at man?

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On 6/21/2022 at 6:31 PM, Lord of the Dunes said:

I thought the same thing on both counts. I can't imagine how much shipping costs for all of those parts. The chassis is pretty bulky, I imagine they could pack the suspension and other parts inside of the chassis, but they can't stuff too many of those in a shipping container. I'm guessing he's gotta be saving a lot of money on materials and welding by doing it over there.

Between inflation and rising shipping costs, this really is a bad time to be in the mfg business.

One of the beauties of automation (robots) is that it cuts out the cost of labor.  Offshore's Only advantage is labor cost.  This is why China fears it and why Japan has invested so heavily into it for JDM. (think Toyota)

if your raw materials are made locally or easy/cheap to ship - it makes Zero sense to build an automated process component like a chassis in China

Today all the tubes are bent cut and notched in an automated fashion and welded robotically

Why would you assemble in china unless your raw material is coming from there (scary) or you're assembling completely there (scarier).

The ex VP of manufacturing at Apple completely automated iphone production so it could be moved to several places around the globe.  It never moved out of China (yet) because China is a huge consumer market and they told Apple build here or you cannot sell here 

I give them credit for standing up for that - I don't think any SxS maker has that issue

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Fullthrottleguy said:

One of the beauties of automation (robots) is that it cuts out the cost of labor.  Offshore's Only advantage is labor cost.  This is why China fears it and why Japan has invested so heavily into it for JDM. (think Toyota)

if your raw materials are made locally or easy/cheap to ship - it makes Zero sense to build an automated process component like a chassis in China

Today all the tubes are bent cut and notched in an automated fashion and welded robotically

Why would you assemble in china unless your raw material is coming from there (scary) or you're assembling completely there (scarier).

The ex VP of manufacturing at Apple completely automated iphone production so it could be moved to several places around the globe.  It never moved out of China (yet) because China is a huge consumer market and they told Apple build here or you cannot sell here 

I give them credit for standing up for that - I don't think any SxS maker has that issue

 

 

Actually the iPhone production is not full automated. The boards & circuitry are. But allot is still human handled. And there is no way Apple is or was trying to leave China. The fact is Foxconn (aka Hon Hai Precision, TW owned) makes the IPhone and pretty much all of Apples products. Foxconn is the largest electronics contract manufacture in the world. They have manufactures around the world, and China is the largest, as that’s were most of the chips and circuitry is manufactured. If Apple was attempting to leave China they would be leaving Foxconn and that’s not happening. 

 

Regarding  raw materials. Your right getting out raw materials from overseas is scary. Not because of quality, because a large majority of our steel and metal comes from Asia now anyways. But the fact we are just that much more dependent on Asia for something we were the leaders in, and manufactured right here in the States. That’s the scariest part of me. The US has deliberately weakened itself when they took their eyes off the prize and focused on other less important things. We allowed and deliberately gave our strength to Asia and China when we let them manufacture everything we depend on. 

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3 hours ago, NIKAL said:

Actually the iPhone production is not full automated. The boards & circuitry are. But allot is still human handled. And there is no way Apple is or was trying to leave China. The fact is Foxconn (aka Hon Hai Precision, TW owned) makes the IPhone and pretty much all of Apples products. Foxconn is the largest electronics contract manufacture in the world. They have manufactures around the world, and China is the largest, as that’s were most of the chips and circuitry is manufactured. If Apple was attempting to leave China they would be leaving Foxconn and that’s not happening. 

 

Regarding  raw materials. Your right getting out raw materials from overseas is scary. Not because of quality, because a large majority of our steel and metal comes from Asia now anyways. But the fact we are just that much more dependent on Asia for something we were the leaders in, and manufactured right here in the States. That’s the scariest part of me. The US has deliberately weakened itself when they took their eyes off the prize and focused on other less important things. We allowed and deliberately gave our strength to Asia and China when we let them manufacture everything we depend on. 

I don't want to get off subject but I beg to differ  -  they 100% have the capabilities to fully automate the line  - I was involved in the process. Yeah everything from  building boards, pick and place stuffing, automated test, enclosed finish and assy, system test and packaging.  4 people can make 1000 phones an hour. 

The machines were made in Germany and assembled in China and tested there, but never shipped out. Right now they are a negotiating tool- easy to replicate and deploy if needed.

It's not that much cheaper to move the raw materials within mainland as opposed to outside.  and its about the same time - the stuff is light and gets flown. Apple piloted the domestic build process in Austin on the  2013 MacPro, it was a leverage move and test scenario.

I completely agree we are severely weakened and could not even resupply in a war if we needed to.  I give Trump the nod for knowing this and wanting to change this. but even that thought is gone now ...

I negotiated a line move of my Apple product line to Foxconn when I was there and spent plenty of time with the exec's over the years. Foxconn has presence worldwide and built my products for my last start up in NorCal. I never ramped enough to move the line before selling the company.

The ONLY reason Apple is still making the iphone exclusively in China is to have access to the Chinese domestic market. The TAM is 2x the size of the US and EMEA and Tim is very greedy. shareholders like that even if it means being at the mercy of China.

No One controls Tim Cook, he is the best Op's guy on the planet. Everyone plays by his rules. He wants a change he does it. I respect him for that. He proved his expertise over and over working with him.

Intel was not happy about Apple making their own Silicon. And Intel  "owns" the uP market (except AMD and ARM = MICE NUTS) Apple moved. If M series failed Apple could still go back to Intel - its business, no doors are closed ...

If RG's engine fails I am 100% sure Rotax or anyone else will sell to him. Its business, not grudges - that stuff only happens in movie plots.

Yeah it sucks we are still building in China, but unless we stop worrying about pronouns and start worrying about the basics, thats not going to change, and by then we won't be able to change it ..

 

 

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