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Fire System Install


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Sorry if this is way long - but I think its important ....

Those who have duned with me know I am a freak for fire safety.  If you go fast in uncontrolled conditions stuff happens. I have seen first hand what fire can do, and some GD members (LRS comes to mind) have been in off road fires and its not fun. 

Most Sand cars don't have fuel cells and firewalls, many have windshields, padded interiors and lots of Horsepower.   The same is true for a lot of SxS with big power hungry lights and stereos and way more plastic than a sand car. 

I started over 10 years ago putting fire systems on all  my cars and many of my Buddies cars, not because I think a systems can put out a big fire, but because statistically you have a way better chance of making it out if you can slow down the fire, and you might just save the car if you are lucky. 

If you have a little 2 or 5LB fire extinguisher in your car you basically are nit putting much out and likely not buying yourself anytime to "escape" and if you use it you will create a huge mess and ruin a lot of the car in the process (Paint, wiring, polished aluminum)

I am not a fire expert but I have learned a little and can say that the cost of a fire system is not even what I spend on fuel and food for weekend and a reasonable install can be done a couple hours by anyone . 

So here is my take ....Essentially there are two types (yes there are more and combos of each) there is AFFF which is a foam fire retardant that smothers the flames  and prevents re-ignition - its basically soap ...  It's made of animal fat.  Its great stuff, it hangs on to surfaces and if it wets you it stops the fire from burning you.  it also goes by the other name cold Fire. There are a few brands of it - mainly from Europe and everyone but ESS IMO is inferior. ESS is the only one that creates the Foam in the container was the C02 cartridge that pressurizes it fires - that is a key to using it in Cars. they don't rely on the nozzle to make the foam (if sand gets in the nozzle of others  - it comes out like soapy water - not effective. 

Basically you fill a tank with water and a soap mix and when you pull a Handle  - it shoots C02 from a cartridge into the tank and foams it, the solution travels through a tube and puts out the fire (more on that later).   The downside of AFFF is that it freezes  - well the water freezes or gets slushy and it does not work at all. people who run it in cold weather  - like when Glamis gets cold at night - either keep the car in the trailer or use a heater blanket over the tank - neither is sure practical. a 2.5L Bottle is usually OK for 2 seat car and 5L is good for 4 seat car - it comes down to the number of Nozzles.   I used these systems on mostly all cars. they are great for open cars "mostly" because foam lays down.   Clean it is not as easy as regular soap and water due to the PH but it cleans up WAY better than an ABC fire extinguisher.

The second type is a Halon derivative - since Halon was outlawed due to environmental concerns, there are two new types 3M Novec 1230 and Dupont FE36 Both work by starving the fire of oxygen, but unlike Halon these are heavier than Air and Blanket and area faster than AFFF and they work good in mostly open cars and they leave No residue  - so no clean up and they don't freeze. 

I have used all three of these types   - Firebottle brand uses FE36 and Safecraft uses Novec 1230. Firebottle was my goto early on because all the drag racers used it.  I went to ESS for a long time because thinking like a racer again  - it has the advantage of being able to refill at home cheaply where the others need to be sent back to refill and cost lots of $$

As a racer you can discharge a bottle by mistake and if you don't have a spare  ir can't refill you cannot race.  As a Duner if I ever have to use the Bottle I and likely not going duning the same weekend ..

Mu latest car I moved to safecraft because I wanted a mess free solution and they are supporting the sport a lot. They also have SxS specific kits that automatically put out "belt" fires and engine related fires with those (hot turbo oil on the exhaust type stuff)

All three of those systems come with Aluminum tubing and aluminum nozzles  - thats important  - the cheap systems that have plastic tubing usually fail because by the time you pull the handle to extinguish the fire,  the tubing already melted and no material makes it out ...

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The key to either is buy the right kit (number of nozzles and bottle size) and place the bottle and nozzles in the right spot

Ideally 3 rules:

1. Always cover the areas of ignition  - on a sand car that means face the nozzles at the headers and Fuel injectors.  If I have extra nozzles I will also target the fell pump, but I have never seen one short and cause a fire.   I have been told so many times not to bother pointing nozzle at the gas tank because there is no way you are going stop gallons of fuel from coming out, so theta just a complete waste

2. save the occupants  - face a nozzle at the feet of the occupants since fuel fires usually travel along the floor. If you have extra nozzles face then the back of the heads of the occupants this way you are covered no matter where you are  even upside down

3. Place the pull handle where both front seat occupants can get to it and / or someone outside can pull it 

You also need to know the system and how the nozzles spray. For instance the ESS has small nozzles  and you can place they straight up and down (just use common sense on direction of the spray)  No sand is "likely "getting in the nozzle and down the tube.  The Firebottle and Safecraft use Big Nozzles and you should mount them upside down so no sand gets in the tune and clogs it up.

Also pay attention to how you place the bottle even though you might be on your side, I always place it assuming I am gonna be right side up or upside down. It makea difference in efficiency.  while there is way more to cover. these are basics -  here are a couple pics of the stystm I did in my car recently 

While the kit comes with aluminum line and you  have to 37 degree flare the ends (like AN) to install you can use a 45 degree stand flare tool and aluminum "gives" enough to seal,  I like using stainless tubing, its harder to work with but it allows me to mount nozzles cleaner with less support. Bottle is horzontal with gauge up and mounted through the floor securely  - it only weighs 5 lbs But I don't want it dislodging in crash

 

Here are some pics of this and previous Install  ...

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I T'd the line so I could get a nozzle for Driver and Passenger.  I tapped and plugged the center hole on the nozzle to give side squirter more force. I made a bracket to hold the Bulkhead T more securely.

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I bent the stainless line do the nozzle points down to keep sand and crap out of the lines  - I did the same in the back of the car over the headers

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_a162.thumb.jpg.73d2c0389eb0c60b6c1623ab640b9b72.jpgUNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_a16b.thumb.jpg.8e57fbce0cc07d82f4263198d91b7953.jpg

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Its hard to tell without the console in But I used a string from each nozzle to measure

where the flow would go right in the lap and legs of the occupants ...

 

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I mounted the Pull handle on dash within reach of both occupants - this system also allows two handles to be used in case the car is wide 

this pic is with the console out of the car

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You can see the "jesus" clip that is normally pushed all the way through the handle to stop accidental discharge

 

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I did the same in the back  with nozzles over headers  - the Nozzles actually blanket the engine

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Here is an ESS example I did in one of my other cars  - this was 2 seater with big 5L bottle - the ESS systems are way bigger that the safecraft

this was Aluminum tubing  and dual head design so no T required -  If I did a 4 seater I would T and run another nozzle in the back

 

 

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This car did not have a Console - but similar Nozzle positioning 

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I did the pull handle between the seats

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I alway use a marker to indicate the flow of the nozzle just in case it turns when tightening it it - Sand cars are tight to work in ...

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On that car I mounted the nozzles into body work for a cleaner look

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Amazing write up,  so cool that you listed a couple of different systems 

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Ditto, thanks again for the info.  I have put a fire system onto my "summer updates" list since I bought this PSD, & every year something keeps coming up..........

 

 

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Is there any concern of asphyxiation from the fire suppression agents that displace oxygen? Or are the cars generally open enough that this isn't a real concern?

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Definitely something worth doing.  I remember reading the write ups before, but it is something that you'll never regret doing.

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3 hours ago, Dockmaster said:

Is there any concern of asphyxiation from the fire suppression agents that displace oxygen? Or are the cars generally open enough that this isn't a real concern?

There was a serious concern with Halon in a small spaces  - but the newer formulas are far better, but still can cause drowsiness and could kill you if in a small closed space like a closet for long enough.  Luckily you don't use enough in the car to do that and it dissipates pretty fast. Our cars are open enough to prevent it. In fact all three formulas are approved by nearly all racing sanctioned bodied.   My worry with AFFF was always severe Eye irritation, it can be really bad if it gets in your eyes, and that combo with sand is a worry.  I always wear googles so not too risky- but sunglasses on windshield cars and it could be a problem

Like everything - there are compromises .. but still better than alternative IMO

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I did a ton of research on this topic when I was deciding on a system for the car I am building. After talking to a few teams and builders in the trophy truck arena I ended up with the fire sense 2018 Afff-AR set up with manual releases.   Almost unanimously recommended for open area use such as we are dealing with.  It is a self contained system without the co2 set up.  I liked that the system is used in American rally, Ultra 4, Score, BITD, Norra and several others. 
 

I have not heard of the freezing problem, and that is a problem for me as we live where it freezes.  I won’t drive the car here but don’t want to deal with it here or in the sand.  I have not installed the system yet as the car is almost ready for powder coat.  I will have to do a bunch more foot work today to decide if I was maybe lead down the wrong path by mistake.  I bought the system from fuel-safe so they will be my first call.  

Definitely worth mentioning is the idea that was also very important to the teams I talked to, and that was the importance of having 2 release handles and having those handles mounted in the dash as close to the outside as possible in case the car is on its side and/or the occupants are unable to pull the lever themselves they can be pulled from outside the car. 

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1 hour ago, Drivehard said:

I did a ton of research on this topic when I was deciding on a system for the car I am building. After talking to a few teams and builders in the trophy truck arena I ended up with the fire sense 2018 Afff-AR set up with manual releases.   Almost unanimously recommended for open area use such as we are dealing with.  It is a self contained system without the co2 set up.  I liked that the system is used in American rally, Ultra 4, Score, BITD, Norra and several others. 
 

I have not heard of the freezing problem, and that is a problem for me as we live where it freezes.  I won’t drive the car here but don’t want to deal with it here or in the sand.  I have not installed the system yet as the car is almost ready for powder coat.  I will have to do a bunch more foot work today to decide if I was maybe lead down the wrong path by mistake.  I bought the system from fuel-safe so they will be my first call.  

Definitely worth mentioning is the idea that was also very important to the teams I talked to, and that was the importance of having 2 release handles and having those handles mounted in the dash as close to the outside as possible in case the car is on its side and/or the occupants are unable to pull the lever themselves they can be pulled from outside the car. 

You could always use a bottle heater, like they use on nitrous bottles. Turn that on after a freezing night while the engine warms up and you should be well above 32F by the time you take off. Or buy a cheap thermostat, set it to come on at 35f and turn off at 40f, put it on the ignition side of the fuse block and you don't need to remember to turn it on and off.

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4 hours ago, Drivehard said:

I did a ton of research on this topic when I was deciding on a system for the car I am building. After talking to a few teams and builders in the trophy truck arena I ended up with the fire sense 2018 Afff-AR set up with manual releases.   Almost unanimously recommended for open area use such as we are dealing with.  It is a self contained system without the co2 set up.  I liked that the system is used in American rally, Ultra 4, Score, BITD, Norra and several others. 
 

I have not heard of the freezing problem, and that is a problem for me as we live where it freezes.  I won’t drive the car here but don’t want to deal with it here or in the sand.  I have not installed the system yet as the car is almost ready for powder coat.  I will have to do a bunch more foot work today to decide if I was maybe lead down the wrong path by mistake.  I bought the system from fuel-safe so they will be my first call.  

Definitely worth mentioning is the idea that was also very important to the teams I talked to, and that was the importance of having 2 release handles and having those handles mounted in the dash as close to the outside as possible in case the car is on its side and/or the occupants are unable to pull the lever themselves they can be pulled from outside the car. 

Do you have a Link to that system?  I am always looking for new sources 

It's funny that all these companies say they are approved for nearly all sanctioned racing, so I rate them all the same there.  Most racers IMO like the ESS systems because you can refill them in field and there is no pressure in the tank 

I do like the idea of a bottle heater  - But Nitrous heaters get really hot - I have put my IR gun on them in the Bracket car and it was over 250 degrees - that much be too hot? Not sure if some are adjustable

The Pre-pressurized AFFF systems according to ESS AFFF comes out the tank as liquid and become foam at the nozzle, they say if the nozzle clogs you will not get foam - thats something to consider.

 

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56 minutes ago, Fullthrottleguy said:

Do you have a Link to that system?  I am always looking for new sources 

It's funny that all these companies say they are approved for nearly all sanctioned racing, so I rate them all the same there.  Most racers IMO like the ESS systems because you can refill them in field and there is no pressure in the tank 

I do like the idea of a bottle heater  - But Nitrous heaters get really hot - I have put my IR gun on them in the Bracket car and it was over 250 degrees - that much be too hot? Not sure if some are adjustable

The Pre-pressurized AFFF systems according to ESS AFFF comes out the tank as liquid and become foam at the nozzle, they say if the nozzle clogs you will not get foam - thats something to consider.

 

This may be one of the most important discussions I have seen on GD in a long time.  If you don’t have fire control and have a family in the car, you are responsible should something ever happen.  It is your responsibility as a car owner to protect yourself and your family. 

the system I have right now is https://fuelsafe.com/fia18-l4s/

after reading this I am currently looking again just to be sure I have the proper stuff.  It’s only money and this is the absolute must for me. 
 

I understand the heating idea, I just don’t want any (and I mean any) more complications to driving the car.  I would rather just buy the right stuff now. Besides  Living where it snows and freezes I don’t know that i could keep it from freezing at some point and I’m not sure it freezing wouldn’t do some sort of damage I didn’t know about until it was too late.  
 

At this point you seem to know more and understand more then ANYONE I have talked to and I felt I did myself justice in asking the racing sector.  I definitely do not like the idea of the nozzle being the source of foam.  If it was in my boat I’d be fine with it.  In the sand on the other hand I’m not so confident now. 

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FWIW, the bottle heaters we used to use on our "street cars" were pressure operated.  we wanted the bottle pressures to be @ 900 PSI @ the hit.  we would put the pressrure switches in the ports next to the gauge (or instead of it), with a connector that allowed us to unplug them  when swapping out the bottle. 

image.png.7a6dafee506f789bd79c964b3ebf7a16.png

 

Im sure one of these temp switches could be put in to control the temp of the bottle so it was AutoMagic.  seems like the hard way around it... 

image.png.e7ca99f60cc4ab79609b3de825713c05.png

 

Also if there is liquid in the bottle, I wonder what would happen if it froze.  Ive seen what happens to engine blocks that dont have coolant in them & you drive from Kalipornia to Georgia for the biggest race of the year...............  😞

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3 hours ago, Drivehard said:

This may be one of the most important discussions I have seen on GD in a long time.  If you don’t have fire control and have a family in the car, you are responsible should something ever happen.  It is your responsibility as a car owner to protect yourself and your family. 

the system I have right now is https://fuelsafe.com/fia18-l4s/

after reading this I am currently looking again just to be sure I have the proper stuff.  It’s only money and this is the absolute must for me. 
 

I understand the heating idea, I just don’t want any (and I mean any) more complications to driving the car.  I would rather just buy the right stuff now. Besides  Living where it snows and freezes I don’t know that i could keep it from freezing at some point and I’m not sure it freezing wouldn’t do some sort of damage I didn’t know about until it was too late.  
 

At this point you seem to know more and understand more then ANYONE I have talked to and I felt I did myself justice in asking the racing sector.  I definitely do not like the idea of the nozzle being the source of foam.  If it was in my boat I’d be fine with it.  In the sand on the other hand I’m not so confident now. 

Again - Not an expert, but I have spent a lot of time with people/manufacturers at SEMA on this subject for the same reasons you stated  - safety for the family and for friends.

That system from Fuelsafe (a good company)  is probably a rebranded Lifeline system  - they are pressurized and are not field serviceable, but are Liquid to Foam at the nozzle

http://www.lifeline-fire.com/lifelinezero200040ltrfiremarshalsteelfiresuppressionsystem.aspx       they have a lot of good info on their site on install etc. 

you should also check out  https://augustamotorsports.biz/  they sell those systems and the Cold Fire equivalents and have a good comparison chart - AFFF and Cold fire are  almost identical  but Cold fire has some retardant chemicals (Pfas)  in the "soap", but the Mechanics are the same - they are both Water based  and because they do not contain gycol they freeze.

This is mixture Lifeline uses:

https://www.chemguard.com/fire-suppression/catalog/foam-concentrates/aqueous-film-forming-foam-afff/c3b-lt29.aspx

It freezes - the ESS you use Tap water and it does freeze as well

the Adberdeen Foam premix will not freeze until 0 degrees but I don't know any companies that use it in motorsports. I guess in most racing freezing is not an issue - but we are generally not racers ...

I would be careful how I mounted those bigger nozzles to prevent sand getting in the tube...

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bobalos said:

Also if there is liquid in the bottle, I wonder what would happen if it froze.  Ive seen what happens to engine blocks that dont have coolant in them & you drive from Kalipornia to Georgia for the biggest race of the year...............  😞

Unlike your poor engine  😟    The ESS bottles have plenty of room for expansion - they kinda "slosh"  after you fill them, I assume they would not burst, but they have "burst panel" in the head anyway, they say its for overpressure from a fire (Ironic)  but I guess it would help if the bottle froze as well.  Not sure if other brands have a Provision like that

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Posted (edited)
On 6/2/2021 at 5:02 PM, Fullthrottleguy said:

Again - Not an expert, but I have spent a lot of time with people/manufacturers at SEMA on this subject for the same reasons you stated  - safety for the family and for friends.

That system from Fuelsafe (a good company)  is probably a rebranded Lifeline system  - they are pressurized and are not field serviceable, but are Liquid to Foam at the nozzle

http://www.lifeline-fire.com/lifelinezero200040ltrfiremarshalsteelfiresuppressionsystem.aspx       they have a lot of good info on their site on install etc. 

you should also check out  https://augustamotorsports.biz/  they sell those systems and the Cold Fire equivalents and have a good comparison chart - AFFF and Cold fire are  almost identical  but Cold fire has some retardant chemicals (Pfas)  in the "soap", but the Mechanics are the same - they are both Water based  and because they do not contain gycol they freeze.

This is mixture Lifeline uses:

https://www.chemguard.com/fire-suppression/catalog/foam-concentrates/aqueous-film-forming-foam-afff/c3b-lt29.aspx

It freezes - the ESS you use Tap water and it does freeze as well

the Adberdeen Foam premix will not freeze until 0 degrees but I don't know any companies that use it in motorsports. I guess in most racing freezing is not an issue - but we are generally not racers ...

I would be careful how I mounted those bigger nozzles to prevent sand getting in the tube...

 

 

 

 

I understand the refill idea, I just think for me that I am more comfortable with a system that I know is done right and sealed.   No user error possible. 
 

I called fuel safe today.  They didn’t have much in the way of knowledge besides “we haven’t had any complaints” on the freezing issue. So they are not much help here.  I will call the place you linked tomorrow.   You have honestly almost talked me right out of this system.  For two reasons, the freezing issue and the potential nozzle issues.   This stuff isn’t super expensive and I care more about having the right system then spend a few bucks on another one.  
 

Im now thinking asking trophy truck teams and builders may not have been the best source as they tear down and rebuild after every single race.  

Edited by Drivehard
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26 minutes ago, Drivehard said:

I understand the refill idea, I just think for me that I am more comfortable with a system that is I know is done right and sealed.   No user error possible. 
 

I called fuel safe today.  They didn’t have much in the way of knowledge besides “we haven’t had any complaints” on the freezing issue. So they are not much help here.  I will call the place you linked tomorrow.   You have honestly almost talked me right out of this system.  For two reasons, the freezing issue and the potential nozzle issues.   This stuff isn’t super expensive and I care more about having the right system then spend a few bucks on another one.  
 

Im now thinking asking trophy truck teams and builders may not have been the best source as they tear down and rebuild after every single race.  

Your system is probably fine, but freezing could still be an issue ...  Race guys do alot of maintenance we unfortunately don't. Not everything translates well from race cars to play cars.  From my Drag days I have habits that stick with me ,  I still inspect my car for bent bolts, loose everything bad rod ends, tire pressure(really important to wheelie straight) CV's, Lug nuts, steering etc before each ride , but most people don't  - I do all that and still break stuff ...

After I would install one of these I would always send this video to the person that owned the car so they could understand how it works 

I basically won't do a SC or Turbo  car upgrade without putting a Fire system in   - admittedly I broke that rule once 🙂  SC cars and Turbo cars move lots of Fuel with nig lines, and Turbos have drains that run near the exhaust - easy fire if a line leaks  and blows 50-75 lbs pressure oil on the headers, same with dry sump cars, Oil lines don't last forever ... they usually rupture at te worst times  ...

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Great write up Alex. I've been on fire twice at 100mph in a Class 1 car whioe racing and once in a boat at 115mph. For me, fire safety is paramount. Don't have pics on my phone but I'll add to the discussion when I'm on my laptop later this week. 

I currently have a 5 liter ESS system on my personal car with 3 nozzles, one pointed at each header and one on the dash. More on that decision later. 

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Posted (edited)

@Fullthrottleguy, @L.R.S., @J Alper, or anyone else for that matter, have you looked real hard at a sand car (or desert car) that has been on fire and had an activated fire system?  

 

My curiosity is about the effectiveness of the system and lessons learned from the post fire evaluation. 

 

Also, does anyone know what alumicraft puts into their cars?  How about any other big, desert car builders?

Edited by Bobalos
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2 hours ago, Bobalos said:

@Fullthrottleguy, @L.R.S., @J Alper, or anyone else for that matter, have you looked real hard at a sand car (or desert car) that has been on fire and had an activated fire system?  

 

My curiosity is about the effectiveness of the system and lessons learned from the post fire evaluation. 

 

Also, does anyone know what alumicraft puts into their cars?  How about any other big, desert car builders?

I would trust the research fullthrottleguy and LRS have done, but as far as sand car builders go, it's anybody's guess how much research they've done on the subject. A while back I saw a video on FB of a Tatum that caught fire at (Little Sahara? Coral Pink?) and it was obvious it was some sort of Halon system because it was totally worthless and didn't emit a white fog like CO2 would have, it was clear, like Halon. The flames subsided for a second or two, then the flames came back bigger. Once the ignition was off and fuel stopped flowing, it took a bunch of people dumping sand on it to put out the flames. My point is either Tatum recommended that system or they let the customer override their suggestion and a Halon system was installed. It would have allowed the driver to get out without injury, but that's a very low bar to set. It didn't come close to extinguishing the fire, which is what I expect. I would trust Baja race teams, because they all share info about stuff like fires and what worked and what didn't.

The same thing goes for antenna mounting location. The vast majority of sand rails have the antenna mounted in the wrong place. Sure, they work, at about 1/2 or 1/4 efficiency. All race radio antennas should be mounted on the roof somewhere, preferably away from the edges. Most are mounted somewhere down near the engine and it's painful to see people spend that kind of money and get a car with such an important detail wrong. The big name builders just don't know any better. Or they don't care, which is even more scary.

Because of the openness of these cars, I've always felt Halon or other gaseous fire extinguishing agents would dissipate too quickly and easily, especially with any breeze at all. Halon was designed for sealed computer room use, not outdoor use. AFFF was designed to combat jet fuel fires on ships, and it does a great job of sticking to stuff and blanketing pools of fuel.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Lord of the Dunes said:

I would trust the research fullthrottleguy and LRS have done, but as far as sand car builders go, it's anybody's guess how much research they've done on the subject. A while back I saw a video on FB of a Tatum that caught fire at (Little Sahara? Coral Pink?) and it was obvious it was some sort of Halon system because it was totally worthless and didn't emit a white fog like CO2 would have, it was clear, like Halon. The flames subsided for a second or two, then the flames came back bigger. Once the ignition was off and fuel stopped flowing, it took a bunch of people dumping sand on it to put out the flames. My point is either Tatum recommended that system or they let the customer override their suggestion and a Halon system was installed. It would have allowed the driver to get out without injury, but that's a very low bar to set. It didn't come close to extinguishing the fire, which is what I expect. I would trust Baja race teams, because they all share info about stuff like fires and what worked and what didn't.

The same thing goes for antenna mounting location. The vast majority of sand rails have the antenna mounted in the wrong place. Sure, they work, at about 1/2 or 1/4 efficiency. All race radio antennas should be mounted on the roof somewhere, preferably away from the edges. Most are mounted somewhere down near the engine and it's painful to see people spend that kind of money and get a car with such an important detail wrong. The big name builders just don't know any better. Or they don't care, which is even more scary.

Because of the openness of these cars, I've always felt Halon or other gaseous fire extinguishing agents would dissipate too quickly and easily, especially with any breeze at all. Halon was designed for sealed computer room use, not outdoor use. AFFF was designed to combat jet fuel fires on ships, and it does a great job of sticking to stuff and blanketing pools of fuel.

I agree 100% that "just getting passengers out" is a low bar in a way, but its todays "bar"  saving the car is harder and thats what Insurance is for (if you can get enough of it in CA)  Life saving is what these systems do.   The Manufacturers will tell you we cannot "practically" carry enough retardant to completely put out a fire if the tank ruptures or the car keeping running pumping fuel.  Most of us carry 5L or 10L at max, thats a few seconds of retardant.  and in an open car  with no flat surfaces, even the AFFF does not "stick" it slides off. 

Back in the day when we had VW powered rails it was common to shake up a Weber Carb and get the float stuck and gas would hit the header and you would have a fire. you get out throw sand on it  - shake out the air cleaner, tap the carb to reset the float and do more duning ...  that was 1/4" fuel line with 3.5lbs fuel pressure.

I hardly touch any cars today that are not SC or Turbo and have1 or  2 fuel pumps each capable of 150 gallons an hour  or more and running  Minimum -10AN lines (5/8")  with 60PSI fuel pressure and a full flow fuel return system. Many have 2 Qt make up tanks  - its a lot of fuel in "play" at any time. a Few of the cars are dry sump  with big Oil lines and 8-10 quarts of oil flowing around near the fuel lines too.   When that stuff melts or ruptures its literally a "fire hose"

Many of these fires happen quick - I saw a car from a "name brand builder" that had a tank  - not a fuel cell behind the front seat and in front of the rear passengers and the tank broke on the mounting (split) on a jump.  they said the fuel flowed forward and covered the front seats them flowed back (bounce after jump hard landing) over back seat and out and hit the headers - it was a fireball in under 30 seconds - I doubt even with the best fire systems anything but getting passengers out was possible.  That car did not have a fire system  ....

Constrast that to one of the guys in our group had a fuel line "pop" off his fuel pump on the second trip out for the car (rookie AN line assy mistake) and he emptied the tank driving in a couple minutes and it never caight fire - luck of the draw? or it just happened where the pump was low and below the upswept header? 

Fire systems, main power kills, wrist straps,  well designed cage and roof braces, good belts and seats .. all life savers  - not really car savers 

 

 

Edited by Fullthrottleguy
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On 6/1/2021 at 12:12 PM, Fullthrottleguy said:

 

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I did the pull handle between the seats

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Assuming the keyhole blades attached to the orange paracord are seatbelt cutters?  Or you looking for a knife fight LOL I always have cutters for all belts in the car. Very very clean setups. 

 

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I wondered what those were.  Id like to see the whole blade. 

I bought something like these for my boys when they started driving (mostly because they asked & I figured it was chicken soup).  I tested them on some strapping material I had & they work pretty bitchen 

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