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Front Turning brakes


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Has anyone ever thought about doing front turning brakes or played around with the idea?

What do you think?

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What about a brake bias controller? I know the NASCAR guys have in there car a knob where they can control the amount of front and rear bias. Some drivers love it and use it correctly and some as my B-I-L once told me are given a knob to play with in the car that doesn't do much.  

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I could be wrong as it is not the truck I work on (I'm barely cool enough to only work on the Pro4 truck), but I think RJ Anderson's Pro2 truck has a dual brake pedal type design that allows him to bias front brake left and right.

We don't use this on the Pro4 truck since the front diff he uses is essentially a spool.

Obviously vastly different vehicles and weight transfers, may not work in a mid/rear engine buggy with all the weight at the rear.

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I have plenty of ideas how to turn faster. 

How about reducing the timing on the drivers side of the engine when you want to turn left?

If you want to turn hard left, have your shock pressure on the right side increase by 200 psi.

How about dynamic tire size, turning direction tire shrinks by 30%.

Employing older technology, use a sand rudder.

 

Follow me for other breaking Engineering theories. 

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1 hour ago, Sean@Weddle said:

I could be wrong as it is not the truck I work on (I'm barely cool enough to only work on the Pro4 truck), but I think RJ Anderson's Pro2 truck has a dual brake pedal type design that allows him to bias front brake left and right.

We don't use this on the Pro4 truck since the front diff he uses is essentially a spool.

Obviously vastly different vehicles and weight transfers, may not work in a mid/rear engine buggy with all the weight at the rear.

Are you talking about the "hoon handle"? I used to be coo like you but I was only doing Class 1 stuff. The teams new Mason Motorsports 6100 truck has one and it locks up both rear brakes. Haven't been in the truck myself but was told if the truck gets out of shape you grab the handle and it'll straighten the truck right out. 

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Different technology but similar concept in acura's sh-awd where the outside tires spin faster when cornering.

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I think a one way valve tied to the steering wheel which would let nitrogen flow from the inside shock to the outside shock when turning and equalize them when going straight would help with turning.

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I recently bought a Talon that has what Honda calls i-4WD. In a nutshell,  braking pressure is applied to a wheel that is spinning more than the others. 
When driving there is a huge difference between 2WD and 4WD. In 2WD the backend slides very easily. The majority of the straight line tracking is probably because of the plain 4WD but I would think that the i-4WD helps some. 
Maybe an all wheel drive buggy would be a good first step for your next project. 
 

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2 hours ago, Turbo_Manx_Maniac said:

I have plenty of ideas how to turn faster. 

How about reducing the timing on the drivers side of the engine when you want to turn left?

If you want to turn hard left, have your shock pressure on the right side increase by 200 psi.

How about dynamic tire size, turning direction tire shrinks by 30%.

Employing older technology, use a sand rudder.

 

Follow me for other breaking Engineering theories. 

I usually try to have someone t-bone me with a semi truck or a large farm tractor on the right when I’m trying to turn left and vis-à-versa when I’m turning right 

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2 hours ago, L.R.S. said:

Are you talking about the "hoon handle"? I used to be coo like you but I was only doing Class 1 stuff. The teams new Mason Motorsports 6100 truck has one and it locks up both rear brakes. Haven't been in the truck myself but was told if the truck gets out of shape you grab the handle and it'll straighten the truck right out. 

It's got one of those too, but he doesn't use it much. Rear is spooled on both trucks, so no independent rear turning brake. 

RJ has is Pro2 up in Pismo now for the Rugged Radios grand opening, I'll be heading up there tomorrow and check it out a little closer for my own satisfaction. I'll see if I can talk him into letting me take it for a rip up and down the beach a few times as well so I can report back here and let you guys know if it works on the front. 🙃

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some of you should do stand up comedy, (i would go)

my wifes car has lane assist that applies both brakes on one side to "pull" you back in the lane.  it works pretty nice and yes that is applying the brakes on the turning wheel.

i dont think locking up a single turning wheel on the inside would be a big deal.

so none of you think it could would to any advantage (in the sand)  i may have to just try it.  my first idea would be to have a second turning brake right along side my normal brake, just with a shorter handle.  if i want both wheels on one side to brake i would effectively grab both handles , if not then just grab the regular rear only

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On the sprint cars we tried a brake on the left front to help set the car going into the turn. Didn't like it much, lost too much speed. We took it off both cars and just worked on the setup more. Liked it better without.

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39 minutes ago, John@Outfront said:

some of you should do stand up comedy, (i would go)

my wifes car has lane assist that applies both brakes on one side to "pull" you back in the lane.  it works pretty nice and yes that is applying the brakes on the turning wheel.

i dont think locking up a single turning wheel on the inside would be a big deal.

so none of you think it could would to any advantage (in the sand)  i may have to just try it.  my first idea would be to have a second turning brake right along side my normal brake, just with a shorter handle.  if i want both wheels on one side to brake i would effectively grab both handles , if not then just grab the regular rear only

I’m thinking have 2 levers, the vertical ones that do 2 wheels, left one for rears, right one for fronts.   With 4 levers, I’d feel like inspector gadget. 

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correct  two levers, but each lever is a single handle two position turning brake.  pull back on left lever =right rear brake, pull back on right lever= right front brake and so forth

pulling back on both levers would be a hard right

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At that point IMO you would need to go with some type of electric over hydraulic valve system to shorten the throw and make it a light touch operation. We have all grabbed the rear turning brake the wrong direction I assume, don't know the ill effects of grabbing front and rear wrong direction at a sketchy moment?.

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3 hours ago, John@Outfront said:

correct  two levers, but each lever is a single handle two position turning brake.  pull back on left lever =right rear brake, pull back on right lever= right front brake and so forth

pulling back on both levers would be a hard right

I thought Funco's didn't need turn brakes ? 😎

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Kind of seems like a cutting brake plumbed to "right" or "left" with adjustable proportioning values on each side would be a pretty bitchen setup. Maybe located to the right and left of the brake so you could reach down and adjust the bias on the fly.. 

But....  it seems to me that anything designed to slow the car down would simply slow the car down.  Maybe something that allows it to turn with the loud peddle jammed to the floor would be the way to make the car faster.  

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Years ago when Herzog’s were racing in  “SODA”. and short course truck was driven by Jimmy Johnson. They had a front wheel braking system, to help rotate the truck. Not sure how it worked but the brake was applied by how much the steering wheel was turned. 
 

I also think Rob Mac had something like this in his Nye Frank built short course truck that was eventually banned and the rule book was re-written because if that truck. 
 

In both cases these trucks had weight over the front and were able to use front brake steering when weight was transferred to the front end in a corner. With a buggy you have very little front weight transfer, and most tend to accelerate pushing the rear around to rotate. 
 

I say try it and see what happens, how it works or in what applications it works best. This is how innovation happens and how the greats find new things. Like what Mickey Thompson did. It was by trying things and seeing if it worked. The bypass shock was built by trying it. Now you all have to have them! 
 

Trivia, Mickey Thompson has been said to have the first by-pass shocks, on his Challenger car. But those were actually built by a guy named Rick Hazlo who later started Shock Tech. Not sure what happened to Rick? Heard drugs might have got into his life. Unfortunately that ruins allot of lives. 

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5 hours ago, John@Outfront said:

correct  two levers, but each lever is a single handle two position turning brake.  pull back on left lever =right rear brake, pull back on right lever= right front brake and so forth

pulling back on both levers would be a hard right

I see no problem with  four brakes, having to think, which lever, which wheel, oh never mind. By the time I could get it figured out I would be back at camp. 

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My idea of the turning brake is to slide the rear wheels to match the path & direction of the front wheels. A front turning brake might be helpful at low speed but with weight bias on the outside rear wheel the inside front wheel would have very little traction in the sand. So I'd assume you would use the outside front wheel to brake. I don't see it being very helpful in the sand and you would have to work the steering, rear turning brake & front turning brake in unison. Maybe some of the AWD technology used in the AWD class one cars would gain you some advantage turning in the sand. Lets see the first AWD Funco summer project.   

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great input  you may not know but my car guaranteed has more front weight bias then "any" rear engine funco ever made.   im close to the weight distribution of a mid engine car, so this front turning brake may have more results then say a V8 funco that has less front weight distribution.  Pulling on the turning brake never slows me down, cause im on the gas at the same time.  that would go for applying the front brake too.

 

you may not have realized it, but if you are able to slow down the inside rear tire while making a right turn (say 5 mph), your left tire speeds up the exact same amount (given your rpm doesn't change)  what a hoot.  i love using the turning brake while under heavy throttle.

most funcos don't need turning brakes, but i want them to add an entirely different feel of 4 wheel drifting that you just cant get anywhere else

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