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Super C Vs Class A DP Drivability


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So my wife and kids will not allow me to go back to a 5er. Currently own a DP but on long drives i feel fatigued but not as bad driving my dually - 5er combo. i figure a Super C will be similar to a dually? im looking at a newer Seneca with the freightliner chassis. 

What say you?

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@tjZ06 Wrote up about this topic before the crash- I believe he stepped up his budget and went with a Newmar product that had a feature that made the coach more pleasurable to drive and was less tiring.

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59 minutes ago, bringenkaos said:

So my wife and kids will not allow me to go back to a 5er. Currently own a DP but on long drives i feel fatigued but not as bad driving my dually - 5er combo. i figure a Super C will be similar to a dually? im looking at a newer Seneca with the freightliner chassis. 

What say you?

Curious what makes you fatigued?  Mine practically drives itself @ 70 mph. Its like sitting in a lazy boy and playing a big video game. 

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I have no issues driving my toterhome but it has an air ride suspension and air ride seats in it and floats down the road. It all depends on the chassis, some of the smaller super C's are on a spring chassis and they are a lot harsher than the air ride. Having the air ride seat makes a huge difference as well, not all super C's have air ride seats. Same for a pusher, the chassis will make the biggest difference on ride quality.

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Just like DP's, not all Super C's are made equal. How much tow capacity do you need? As mentioned, air ride makes a difference. My Super C is a Kodiak 5500 chassis on springs and it rides and drives very nicely. I put the Koni shocks on, added supersprings and a rear trac bar. It drives great but I'm limited to 10k towing. My next rig will be the more heavy duty chassis with air ride and an actual 20k tow rating so I can go to a stacker. 

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I personally LOVE driving DPs… huge view windshield and you’re way up high.,. Feel like a school bus driver.

Never owned one, but rented one and also drove my buddies a few times.

For me personally the cost and complexity just doesn’t work. My $15k used 5th is cheap and easy with blade fuses and exposed .., whatever.

You need ‘toilet money’ for anything else IMO.

I’d rather put my dough in the toys. Plus not having another (useless) drivetrain to deal with (truck has other uses) is the real kicker… but hey… if you can swing the dollars… they’re pretty sweet… just bad ‘investments’ IMO.

Class C is intriguing however.. I’d just want to have enough HP/torque so you can tow your toys.

abc

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Before I settled on a DP, I was trying to figure out the same thing. I really liked the floor plans on the super c’s because of the amount of kids I have. I was looking at the air ride Seneca’s and similar. The main thing that held me back was they all came with the 6.7. I felt that was a tad small for the price point and what I wanted to do. Although it seems that’s what they are putting in everything. 

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The freight liner M2 is a bulletproof chassis for several different super C’s, but still kind of a rough ride. Nice to have a crumple zone in front of you, instead of a giant piece of glass. I had a DX3 super C with the M2 which was great at pulling big loads without having to manage the RPMs as much as I did with my DP.  We recently traded the DX3 in for a Renegade Classic on a freight liner cascadia chassis. Oh my god what a night and day difference! Expensive but wow, what a dreamy ride. Every time I drive it, I love it more. I actually look forward to driving home from Glamis (use to hate it). Best rig I have ever owned, not even close to second.  I honestly ask my wife to go for a drive just because I love driving it. I almost hate getting to my destination.  13 liter Detroit diesel, no problem pulling 75 up whitewater with my fully loaded 24’ stacker.  Wife is in heaven! She said finally you have a rig that is big enough to pull the loads you are trying to move. She hated the big sheet of glass and never felt safe. She is right, front collision would be a bad day in a class A. 

image.jpeg

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Pulled the trigger on a 2022 Renegade Verona last January and I'm supposed to have it delivered in about 2 weeks...( the picture is what it's going to look like) We are coming from a 06 Fun Mover with the 10 foot garage. We have had high end pushers in the family for years and to tell the truth I was never that impressed. I always liked the way a truck drives and I like the engine in front of me. There are pro's and con's to each and you have to decide what you can and can't live with. I'm looking forward to making new memories with the new coach! First trip is going to Sturgis SD for 3 weeks in August!

The only reason were moving on is we are looking for a little more room and my wife wanted something new! 🙂 And if anyone is looking the Fun Mover will be for sale at the end of august!   

042-IWS-Renegade-Verona-RV-Freightliner-Chassis-Exterior-Slides-Awning.jpg

20171227_080947.jpg

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I’ve had 5th wheels, class c, class A gas, diesel pusher, and now a super c. Definitely  enjoy the driving experience in the super c. Half way cross country this month and it just moves! Feels planted on the road, when you pass a semi or if they pass you there is no movement. For kids it’s great because you still have the upper bunk. Air ride suspension, air ride seats, it’s just a much more enjoyable driving experience. 

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As a heavy truck mechanic my 2 cents is on par with some other comments. You definitely get what you pay for. The smaller super-c has problems with towing. Power and braking are the main issues. I would recommend units built on a class 8 chassis. They will have the engine, transmission and braking required for towing in the mountains. If you must go with the smaller version the Freightliner may is the way to go. Preferably with air brakes. Also from a maintenance stand point they are much easier to work on which gets you more repair options. Most shops will work on them.

Edited by dunefinkster
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Toterhome all the way.

Nothing else compares.

Renegade, show hauler, 5150, kingsley coach, there's another company that built a bunch and 1 or 2 more I can't think of right now.

Class 8 is intended to do much more than we need even pulling a loaded to the hilt stacker.

I was told by a friend that he thought the ultimate package would be what renegade calls a sport deck truck (class 8 3 axle with 17' box conversion on truck) the fifth wheel style stacker trailer with living quarters in the front of it too for the trailer. Extra space for family that comes once in a while with their families.

He's already running a show hauler and stacker.

 

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You really have to watch the gcvwr on a super C. I was told by the dealership it was good for 10K lbs due to the hitch rating, I did the math and gcvwr allowed 5.7k max. Ive gone full circle a couple / few times. I'm in a DP and don't see going any other direction. That being said, there are many ways to make a DP more comfortable to drive, it is quite the opposite of fatiguing for me, Super comfortable and easy. 

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15 hours ago, raspadoo said:

You really have to watch the gcvwr on a super C. I was told by the dealership it was good for 10K lbs due to the hitch rating, I did the math and gcvwr allowed 5.7k max. Ive gone full circle a couple / few times. I'm in a DP and don't see going any other direction. That being said, there are many ways to make a DP more comfortable to drive, it is quite the opposite of fatiguing for me, Super comfortable and easy. 

What are the ways to make it a dp more comfortable. I got a road trip to Montana coming up. I don’t mind driving it now but I always welcome ways to make it better. 

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38 minutes ago, Jtmoney714 said:

What are the ways to make it a dp more comfortable. I got a road trip to Montana coming up. I don’t mind driving it now but I always welcome ways to make it better. 

Drive a gasser for a couple hours, then you will respect the dp.

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4 hours ago, Jtmoney714 said:

What are the ways to make it a dp more comfortable. I got a road trip to Montana coming up. I don’t mind driving it now but I always welcome ways to make it better. 

http://sourcerv.com/REK206

I had this system installed a few years back.

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5 hours ago, Jaybird95 said:

Drive a gasser for a couple hours, then you will respect the dp.

Oh I have lol. It was like driving a fish bowl. 

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1 hour ago, raspadoo said:

http://sourcerv.com/REK206

I had this system installed a few years back.

I have the Spartan chassis. When it’s time for shocks I will be looking into what’s valves best for mine. 

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On 6/23/2021 at 3:11 PM, Jrauscher1 said:

@tjZ06 Wrote up about this topic before the crash- I believe he stepped up his budget and went with a Newmar product that had a feature that made the coach more pleasurable to drive and was less tiring.

I've had a few RVs.  I started with a '09 Fleetwood Southwind 34G (Gas, Class A), then a '17 Newmar Dutch Star 4018 (Diesel Pusher Class A), then went back to a 5'er for a minute, then a '21 Thor Magnitude SV34 (Diesel Super C, factory 4x4 on the F550 platform), and now back in a '19 Newmar Mountain Aire 4018 (Diesel Pusher, Class A).

 

I hated driving the Southwind.  I had upgraded sway bars, shocks, track bars, etc. etc. etc. and it was the higher GVWR chassis with the 22.5" wheels and factory front track bar (lower GVWR units didn't have the front bar, IIRC).  It was a white-knuckle drive above 60 MPH, period.  Wind?  Trucks?  Effing horrible.  My wife learned not to even try to talk to me when I was driving it... and I'd find myself sitting with my feet flat-foot spread out like I was bracing myself for a sumo wrestler to charge.  It was actually better with a trailer on it as far as sway and wondering around... but just didn't have the power for a relatively heavy flatbed with 2 RZRs on it (it had the later, better 3-valve headed V10 and a full Banks kit).  And to be clear, I'm not just a timid driver or something.  With the 5'ers I had before the Southwind I'd comfortably tow with one hand, sending work emails, eating a sammich, etc.  Same with my later coaches.  Perhaps there was something especially wrong with THAT particular coach, but I did EVERYTHING you can do (all the parts I mentioned and more, alignments, attempts at corner-balancing, etc. etc. etc).  

Real-world, how much can an XP900 tow? | Polaris RZR Forum - RZR Forums.net

After that, we got the Dutch Star.  Here's the day we traded the Southwind in on it (funny to see the Dutchy with the polished wheels and all the badges still): 

2017 Newmar Dutch Star 4018 Diesel Pusher - iRV2 Forums

Later it got a bit more gangster: 

2017 Newmar Dutch Star 4018 Diesel Pusher - iRV2 Forums

And I towed a 20' stacker with it: 

Turning circle for Dutch Star 4018? - iRV2 Forums

Even took my '67 Camaro to Glamis with it, cuz that's what you do right (truth be told I was selling it and met the buyer there):

Weak headlights? What upgrades have you done? - iRV2 Forums

To say driving it was night and day different would be an exceptional understatement.  The Dutchy had 315 tires all around, all 8 of 'em vs. 6 245s or whatever the Southwind had and weighed literally twice as much.  I think the extra contact patch and weight just helped a ton.  Then, there is Newmar's Comfort Drive (what @Jrauscher1 was referring to, I believe).  If you've never driven a Newmar and are considering a new coach, do yourself a favor and try one.  Comfort Drive makes a HUGe difference.  Google and the YouTubers will have plenty of videos about what it does, but the short version is it compensates for road crown, cross-winds, etc. for you so you're not holding that "tension" in the wheel.  It's also adjustable so you can spin the front tires with one finger when parking.  

 

The Dutch Star had the 8.9L ISL at 450/1250 HP/TQ and with the stacker I'd describe it as "just adequate."  Even though it was a 40' model (40' 9" real length) it was heavy, around 40k lbs itslef and over 52k lbs with the stacker:

weightslip.thumb.jpg.a4f3f677e1d52e6c8545d6f659478733.jpg

This was with my 2-seat Potter car (prob 2600-2700lbs), a 2 seat XPT (prob 1800lbs), lots of tools/spares, but no fuel or water onboard the stacker yet.  The "drive axle" weight is of course actually the drive axle AND the tag axle:

Scales.thumb.jpeg.270670f76194c9633069d6971a7ccb33.jpeg

Climbing truly steep grades (like the steepest parts of Highway 80 going up to Donner Summit in Northern, CA headed towards Reno) it could only pull the top of 3rd gear, which was around 37 MPH with the stacker.  It had the power to get back to the top of 3rd if I got slowed down by rigs, but couldn't hold 4th if I let it shift.  That said, the fully loaded rigs are literally doing 15 MPH in those stretches, so 37 isn't so bad. 

I should have kept that rig, but we decided to downsize for a bit, so I sold it and got a 5'er again.  That only lasted about a year before we missed having a "drivable" too much (we do a lot of trips OTHER than Glamis/toy trips so we love having a regular RV for that stuff.  We were still way up in Northern CA and I had myself convinced I was going to stay away from sand rails and only do an occasional Glamis trip, so we decided on a smaller, 4x4 RV.  I'll pick that up in the next post... 

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The Super C we decided on was a 2021 Thor Magnitude (same as an Omni) SV34. 

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I had really wanted an Isata 5 28SS because it was even shorter, but it just brought WAY too many compromises.  We loved a LOT of things about that SV34.  The floorplan really made the most out of the length.  I loved the outdoor kitchen.  And it had things like a King Bed that were on our "must haves" (and the 28SS did not have).  One the downside the tanks were just too damn small, and Thor quality is suspect at best.  But, this isn't so much a post about features and floorplans, as how they drive.  

In short, it drove GREAT.  It really was relaxing to drive, just like driving a pickup.  Without a trailer it was downright quick (for an RV) and even with a trailer it was sufficiently fast and would hold 50+ up anything.  The new 6.7 PSDs and the 10-speed are an insanely nice combo, and the 4.88 rear gears helped even more.  I got my trailer dialed-in just right for the RV and used a chain-style weight distribution and anti-sway device and it worked perfectly. 

Combo1.jpg.b2e45a543dff4a557dfd2f5fb2988ceb.jpg

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In fact, the first time I pulled the trailer with the Thor was the weekend that the last big round of wildfires started in CA.  It was crazy windy, in big gusts.  Still, this thing was a 1-hander, no-stress drive.  Had I kept it I wanted to remove the front fascia to expose the stock front bumper that was still under it, probably black out the wheels like my Dutch Star, remove some badges and things like that.  I would have liked to add more batteries, and better seal the battery compartment under the steps (it's open to the ground, and just has the thin steps separating it from the cabin so it seemed like 80% of the road noise came through there).  I also wanted to find room for more fresh and grey water.  In fact, there was a TON of open space under the chassis... but figuring out transfer/pumping would have been the catch AND it was already very much up against GVWR limitations (if you care about that sort of thing).  

 

I would absolutely recommend one, or even buy one again if the circumstances were right.  However, I decided to buy another sand rail, so we decided we'd spend a bunch more time in Glamis again.  Why was that a problem?  Well we were still up in Norcal, and with my work schedule and stuff burning 1-2 days each way to get to/from Glamis just doesn't work.  My wife had spent seasons in G before and is a total trooper about just staying out in the dunes when I have to fly back for work.  But, this time we decided we wanted to buy a spot here: https://www.motorcoachcountryclub.com/ and that requires a Class A.  We had rented there many times when we had the Dutch Star, and we just friggin' love it.  

 

Going back to an A I knew exactly what I wanted.  I wanted a 40' Mountain Aire in the 4018 floorplan.  It's basically the exact same rig as the Dutch Star we had (exact floorplan) but on the bigger/better chassis with the bigger motor and trans.  My Dutch Star was on a Freightliner, but Spartans were optional.  On the DS though, if you went Spartan you got the K2.  And of course it had the aforementioned 450/1250 HP/TQ 8.9L ISL.  With the 4018 Mountain Aire you get the same length and weight (or at least close) coach but on the Spartan K3 chassis (same chassis they use all the way up through the King Aire) and the 11.9L 500/1695 HP/TQ ISX.  They only started doing a 40' MA (vs. 45') in '18 and by '20 they made changes to the floorplan we didn't like, then in '21 they went back to the better bathroom layout but had bumped the overall length up a foot.  Being in CA we liked the 40' models (in the MA the true length is 40' 10" vs. the 40' 9" on the DS) since you can get the *right* 20' stacker behind it and still be just under 65' (I was 64' 10-3/4" with the DS and stacker in the pics above).  

 

As gangster as our DS looked, we decided for the desert lifestyle we wanted lighter colors this time.  We were searching high and low, across the whole country and finally found the right coach within 5 miles of our house.  It's a 2019 that only had 7600 miles on it.  It was owned by an older gentleman who ran into health issues, and had only gone on a handful of trips (including going back to Indiana once to have all the new-coach-bugs worked out). 

 

MA1.jpg.976ad00e912c8e54582694e63d4600c3.jpg

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And here are a couple shots in the RV spot we bought at the MCC:

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PXL_20201230_002821072_MP.thumb.jpg.e9ee5293b5b9aa4f886fffac092c318a.jpg

(both the coach and my truck were filthy having just got in from Glamis that day) 

 

 

As expected, we love this coach.  It drives every bit as good as the DS, but perhaps a bit smoother (maybe that's the Spartan, maybe that's the weight) and more stable (maybe that's the 365 front tires).  I actually haven't towed with it yet, but I'm sure the 50/445 HP/TQ will help.  Obviously the HP isn't a big difference, but I think the torque will help it when it upshifts into 4th on a grade pulling a trailer.  

 

But, of course as soon as we get a setup dialed in that works out well for our situation, I change it all.  We sold or NorCal house and are buying in Vegas.  Since we'll be so much closer in Vegas, we'll probably sell the MCC spot.  We do really enjoy time there, so for this coming season we'll probably hold onto it and see how renting it out when we don't use it goes, but I suspect in the long run we won't use it enough to justify keeping it.  Also, 65' isn't so much of a thing anymore.  So, in theory I *could* have just kept the Thor at this point, or we *could* have gone with a 45' coach.  But truth-be-told, I'm happy it ended up this way.  The Thor was awesome, and the 4x4 and stuff made it unique and bad ass... but how can I complain about this MA?  And "only" going 40' means I can do a 24' stacker this time and stay under Nevada's 70' limit. 🙂

 

-TJ

 

Edited by tjZ06
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1 hour ago, tjZ06 said:

I've had a few RVs.  I started with a '09 Fleetwood Southwind 34G (Gas, Class A), then a '17 Newmar Dutch Star 4018 (Diesel Pusher Class A), then went back to a 5'er for a minute, then a '21 Thor Magnitude SV34 (Diesel Super C, factory 4x4 on the F550 platform), and now back in a '19 Newmar Mountain Aire 4018 (Diesel Pusher, Class A).

 

I hated driving the Southwind.  I had upgraded sway bars, shocks, track bars, etc. etc. etc. and it was the higher GVWR chassis with the 22.5" wheels and factory front track bar (lower GVWR units didn't have the front bar, IIRC).  It was a white-knuckle drive above 60 MPH, period.  Wind?  Trucks?  Effing horrible.  My wife learned not to even try to talk to me when I was driving it... and I'd find myself sitting with my feet flat-foot spread out like I was bracing myself for a sumo wrestler to charge.  It was actually better with a trailer on it as far as sway and wondering around... but just didn't have the power for a relatively heavy flatbed with 2 RZRs on it (it had the later, better 3-valve headed V10 and a full Banks kit).  And to be clear, I'm not just a timid driver or something.  With the 5'ers I had before the Southwind I'd comfortably tow with one hand, sending work emails, eating a sammich, etc.  Same with my later coaches.  Perhaps there was something especially wrong with THAT particular coach, but I did EVERYTHING you can do (all the parts I mentioned and more, alignments, attempts at corner-balancing, etc. etc. etc).  

Real-world, how much can an XP900 tow? | Polaris RZR Forum - RZR Forums.net

After that, we got the Dutch Star.  Here's the day we traded the Southwind in on it (funny to see the Dutchy with the polished wheels and all the badges still): 

2017 Newmar Dutch Star 4018 Diesel Pusher - iRV2 Forums

Later it got a bit more gangster: 

2017 Newmar Dutch Star 4018 Diesel Pusher - iRV2 Forums

And I towed a 20' stacker with it: 

Turning circle for Dutch Star 4018? - iRV2 Forums

Even took my '67 Camaro to Glamis with it, cuz that's what you do right (truth be told I was selling it and met the buyer there):

Weak headlights? What upgrades have you done? - iRV2 Forums

To say driving it was night and day different would be an exceptional understatement.  The Dutchy had 315 tires all around, all 8 of 'em vs. 6 245s or whatever the Southwind had and weighed literally twice as much.  I think the extra contact patch and weight just helped a ton.  Then, there is Newmar's Comfort Drive (what @Jrauscher1 was referring to, I believe).  If you've never driven a Newmar and are considering a new coach, do yourself a favor and try one.  Comfort Drive makes a HUGe difference.  Google and the YouTubers will have plenty of videos about what it does, but the short version is it compensates for road crown, cross-winds, etc. for you so you're not holding that "tension" in the wheel.  It's also adjustable so you can spin the front tires with one finger when parking.  

 

The Dutch Star had the 8.9L ISL at 450/1250 HP/TQ and with the stacker I'd describe it as "just adequate."  Even though it was a 40' model (40' 9" real length) it was heavy, around 40k lbs itslef and over 52k lbs with the stacker:

weightslip.thumb.jpg.a4f3f677e1d52e6c8545d6f659478733.jpg

This was with my 2-seat Potter car (prob 2600-2700lbs), a 2 seat XPT (prob 1800lbs), lots of tools/spares, but no fuel or water onboard the stacker yet.  The "drive axle" weight is of course actually the drive axle AND the tag axle:

Scales.thumb.jpeg.270670f76194c9633069d6971a7ccb33.jpeg

Climbing truly steep grades (like the steepest parts of Highway 80 going up to Donner Summit in Northern, CA headed towards Reno) it could only pull the top of 3rd gear, which was around 37 MPH with the stacker.  It had the power to get back to the top of 3rd if I got slowed down by rigs, but couldn't hold 4th if I let it shift.  That said, the fully loaded rigs are literally doing 15 MPH in those stretches, so 37 isn't so bad. 

I should have kept that rig, but we decided to downsize for a bit, so I sold it and got a 5'er again.  That only lasted about a year before we missed having a "drivable" too much (we do a lot of trips OTHER than Glamis/toy trips so we love having a regular RV for that stuff.  We were still way up in Northern CA and I had myself convinced I was going to stay away from sand rails and only do an occasional Glamis trip, so we decided on a smaller, 4x4 RV.  I'll pick that up in the next post... 

Looks like you got your Newmar from Tom Lindstrom RV.   

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44 minutes ago, Sand Shark said:

Looks like you got your Newmar from Tom Lindstrom RV.   

The Dutch Star, yes.  In fact we had bought that Southwind used from him too, then traded it back into him on the DS.  Sold the DS back to him as well.  Found the Mountain Aire private party up North.

 

-TJ
 

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27 minutes ago, tjZ06 said:

The Dutch Star, yes.  In fact we had bought that Southwind used from him too, then traded it back into him on the DS.  Sold the DS back to him as well.  Found the Mountain Aire private party up North.

 

-TJ
 

I bought my current motorhome from him used.   He is a super cool dude and one of the easiest purchases.  

I was looking into a new Newmar gas A-class early last year.  I heard they were going to be using the new Ford V8 for the 2021 models so I really did not push making a deal with him on new coach. 

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12 minutes ago, Sand Shark said:

I bought my current motorhome from him used.   He is a super cool dude and one of the easiest purchases.  

I was looking into a new Newmar gas A-class early last year.  I heard they were going to be using the new Ford V8 for the 2021 models so I really did not push making a deal with him on new coach. 

Yup, great guy and easy to do business with.  That new 7.3 gas motor and the 10-speed auto will be a game changer for gas Class As... but I sure hope they've found a way to make 'em drive better. 

 

-TJ
 

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